Government Operations Committee on June 17th, 2008

[Mike O'Neil]

In this town, it's mainly government services. Probably 80% would be involved with government; there's not a lot of industry in this town, other than high-tech companies that typically try to take our employees.

[Harold Albrecht, Conservative, Kitchener—Conestoga, ON]

Thank you.

Mr. Lynt, you made a comment, in your second last paragraph, that your “sincere and deepest hope is that the Conservative members of this committee and the Parliamentary Secretary....” It appears to me that you've had a dialogue with opposition members on this issue. I know I have not had a dialogue with you. I don't recall being approached for a dialogue.

My question is this. Have you been in consultation with Conservative members on this issue prior to today? It would seem to me it would have been helpful to move the yardsticks ahead. It follows up on Mr. Kramp's comment about having some of this information ahead of time so we could have done our homework better to answer some of the allegations that are made today.

Did you in fact approach some of my colleagues on this issue?

[Jeff Lynt]

I appreciate your concern. Certainly we've tried extensively to be consulted on this matter. In the last week or so, things have progressed very quickly. We did have meetings lined up with many members to discuss our concerns. Unfortunately, I was able to participate on only one day. I'm not sure who Mike met with. I personally have not met with any Conservative members, but it's important to note that we did try to take the traditional consultation method with PWGSC, and thus the government, and basically the hand was thrown up to us that consultations were over.

[Harold Albrecht, Conservative, Kitchener—Conestoga, ON]

I do think that in the interest of moving ahead with this committee--again it appears to me that you've had a dialogue with other members--I think it would have been helpful to at least attempt to dialogue with the members who serve on this committee who may have been helpful in facilitating dialogue at the bureaucratic level.

[The Chair, Liberal, Diane Marleau]

Mr. O'Neil, do you want to answer that?

[Mike O'Neil]

You have to understand that as SMEs we're taking time away from our jobs to do this on behalf of all SMEs. I in particular met with my MP, Pierre Poilievre, several months ago, and he actually issued the letter to Minister Fortier, which I never heard anything back on. It was basically outlining the concerns I have as an employee of an IT consulting company here in Ottawa regarding the shared services contract bundling initiative. I haven't heard anything back. The only thing I ever saw was the MERX June 6 update that basically said they were going to award points now for bidders that have a strategic plan to engage SMEs as subcontractors, which is not what we were expecting to see.

[Harold Albrecht, Conservative, Kitchener—Conestoga, ON]

Do I have any time left?

[The Chair, Liberal, Diane Marleau]

I think that's it. Do you have another short question?

[Harold Albrecht, Conservative, Kitchener—Conestoga, ON]

I have just one short question. I'm not fluent in French, but there was an article in a French paper that alleged, as you did in your submission this morning, that these contracts will be awarded on a 15- to 20-year-long basis. My information is that PWGSC actually has issued a new method for supply, which provides a one-year term with annual renewals. I don't know if you want to respond to that.

[Mike O'Neil]

I'll go back to the consultation process. We've heard nothing of that. It wasn't in anything that came out on June 6. So all we have is the presentation that Mr. Poole did to OCRI, which says that he's going to be awarding 15- to 20-year contracts on a winner-take-all basis for a large integrator, and they'll work together to deliver the cost savings to the government.

[Harold Albrecht, Conservative, Kitchener—Conestoga, ON]

I just want to go on record as saying that it's important that we clarify in a more up-to-date fashion and hear from the other group of witnesses today.

[The Chair, Liberal, Diane Marleau]

Thank you.

We're going to take a short break while we change witnesses.

[The Chair, Liberal, Diane Marleau]

To the people from Public Works, you'll understand why we wanted you to come here this morning as well. I know it was a surprise to you, but I think it's only fair to allow you to make a presentation and to address some of the issues that have been brought up here today.

I don't know who will be speaking. I'm going to leave it up to you and for you to introduce yourselves.

The famous Mr. Poole is sitting in front of us—or is that “infamous”?

[Liliane saint pierre, Assistant Deputy Minister, Acquisitions Branch, Department of Public Works and Government Services]

Madam Chair, thank you for this opportunity to appear before this committee as you discuss the procurement activities of Public Works and Government Services Canada.

With me are Steven Poole, who is the chief executive officer, and Maurice Chénier, the chief operating officer of the information technology services branch.

With me is Jérôme Thauvette, Director General of the Services and Technology Acquisition Management Sector of Acquisitions Branch.

As ADM of Acquisitions Branch, my job is to acquire goods and services on behalf of clients both within Public Works and across the Government of Canada.

Mr. Poole's job is to provide IT services to other government departments on an optional basis and to manage Public Works' internal information management and information technology services.

With respect to the relationship between our two branches, the information technology services branch identifies what it needs to carry out its functions, and the acquisitions branch acquires those services and products, as we do for our clients outside Public Works.

Public Works takes very seriously the role of small and medium-sized enterprises in Canada's economy and Canadian communities. Through our department's office of small and medium enterprises, we have been making an explicit effort to make it easier for smaller firms to compete for and win government business.

In the two years since the creation of dedicated SME offices across the country, departmental employees have interacted with more than 30,000 individuals and businesses, and the number of small and medium-sized firms registering as suppliers to Public Works and Government Services Canada has steadily increased.

On average, over the last three years, 68% of all contracts let by Public Works, accounting for 39% of contract value, have gone to SMEs. Moreover, SMEs in recent months have proven very successful at qualifying for new standing offers and supply arrangements for informatics professionals, which we posted on MERX at the end of last year.

These were issued following extensive consultations with industry and are available for use by all government departments. More than 200 firms qualified, of which about 72% are SMEs with 100 or fewer employees. Companies that did not qualify initially will be able to compete again during our annual updates.

As well as providing opportunities for Canadian businesses, Public Works continues to focus on modernizing government operations and obtaining optimum value for Canadians.

One of the ways we are doing this is through our Information Technology Shared Services initiative, one aspect of which is the Government Enterprise Network services initiative—a cross-government network for services such as telephone and internet access that will reduce duplication and make more efficient use of resources.

The Governments of British Columbia, Ontario and Quebec have already gone down the path of shared services, as have several large private-sector firms.

We have been consulting with industry—including associations representing small businesses—on the contract requirements for the project over the past two years.

While most of the feedback has been favourable, we have heard some concerns and made adjustments accordingly.

For example, we have introduced more rigorous definitions of the professional services within the scope of the strategy and removed certain services. We also now plan to put in the bid solicitation mandatory provisions that bidders include an SME subcontracting plan in their proposals. There will remain a need for IT professionals to manage the implementation of these services and to monitor them.

Madam Chair, the RFP has not been issued yet. We will continue to consult with industry on it and on all future large-scale IM/IT procurements.

However, we will also establish a structure for a more formal consultation process that will include senior departmental officials as well as our Office of Small and Medium Enterprises. This will provide assurances to both the industry and ourselves that we have the same understanding.

Madam Chair, we look forward to your questions.

[The Chair, Liberal, Diane Marleau]

Thank you, Ms. saint pierre.

I listened to you, and I'm listening to you now, and sometimes I wonder whether there is in Public Works and Government Services the same disconnect that I see in other departments, where the upper echelons are not aware of what is really going on. We hear from the industry and they're saying they haven't been consulted, and yet you're saying, “We are consulting. We are continuing to consult.”

I hope we can make that mesh, because I think it's very important that we don't put aside the small and medium enterprises, which really are the innovation and really much of what goes on--they drive the economy.

I put that to you because too often as chair of this committee I run into that disconnect between the upper echelons and the actual people who are doing the work. And are they really doing what you think they're doing?

I'll give you half a second to answer that, and then I'll go to Mr. Proulx, because it's a very big concern of mine, and it's something that I've seen across government over the years.

I'm asking her the question, so she can try to answer.

[Liliane saint pierre]

Madam Chair, it is very important that consultations take place. That said, there is arguably never enough consultations in certain sectors. However, I must say that we are fully committed and convinced of the need to consult on all major projects involving long-term technology contracts.

[The Chair, Liberal, Diane Marleau]

I hope that you will have many more consultations. Summer is just around the corner and we want assurances that the consultation process will not unfold over the summer, while we're away.

You are up next, Mr. Proulx.

[Marcel Proulx, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair. The two questions I had have already been asked of the witness. Therefore, I'll move on to another topic.

[The Chair, Liberal, Diane Marleau]

I'm sorry.

[Marcel Proulx, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

There is no need at all to apologize, Madam Chair. Quite the contrary. This will give me a chance to broach other subjects.

Good day, Ms. saint pierre. Welcome to you and your colleagues. I appreciate your taking the time to come here. I know that you have a busy schedule as well.

I'd like to make a brief comment along the same lines as Ms. Marleau's. On listening to you, Ms. saint pierre, I have the feeling that we should be congratulating you and praising you for making your Small and Medium Enterprise offices genuine success stories. However, I will reserve my congratulations until later because other industry stakeholders seem to be singing a somewhat different tune. So then, I will hold off to see if you deserve to be praised or not for your efforts.

Mr. Kramp said to one of the witnesses a little while ago that he thought it was more whining than anything else on their part. I beg to--

[Daryl Kramp, Conservative, Prince Edward—Hastings, ON]

On a point of order, Madam Chair, I did not say that. That is a statement that is totally out of--

[Marcel Proulx, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

What did you say? You didn't say they were whining?

[Daryl Kramp, Conservative, Prince Edward—Hastings, ON]

If I would be allowed to explain it, I would.

[Marcel Proulx, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

Well, you explain it when it's your time, okay?

[Daryl Kramp, Conservative, Prince Edward—Hastings, ON]

Thank you.