Government Operations Committee on Oct. 29th, 2009

[Pat Martin, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

As soon as it was out of my mouth—

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

I find this most interesting. It reminds me of a conversation we had about the type of coffee they sell in the cafeteria.

[Rob Merrifield, Conservative, Yellowhead, AB]

Madam Chair, could I just add this, because I think the concern is somewhat legitimate? The concern is whether the federal money is spent appropriately, and fair enough.

[Pat Martin, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

That's all we want to know. It's not harassing to ask.

[Rob Merrifield, Conservative, Yellowhead, AB]

One of the comfort zones that gives me great comfort and should give Canadians great comfort is that most of these projects are not our projects. They're provincial-municipal projects, and most of them have to dig into their pockets and take out a third of the cost of that project as a municipality and a province, and all three orders of government have to agree on it.

So I don't hear a lot of provinces yelling foul play in any way. They have actually come alongside on these projects and actually are administering the dollars to a large degree. So that should give Canadians and this House some comfort as to where we're going to go, because this is all about Canadians, about jobs, about the economy, and that's our focus.

[The Chair, Liberal, Yasmin Ratansi]

Thank you, Mr. Martin.

Yes.

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

For example, in your province of Manitoba, the government and the economic action plan identified, as the Federation of Canadian Municipalities suggested, that putting money into public works and infrastructure would help create jobs, both from a material standpoint and from a construction standpoint. That's the premise. We're working collaboratively with the provincial and municipal governments. What I don't think we can do is simply impose a level of bureaucracy and micro-management to say, “Great. You're building a new building. Where did that steel come from? How many jobs are created by the steel? Listen, you've put a tender out. You got two bids. Which one is going to hire more? Which one is the best cost?”

There's a fundamental principle: to get people to work and to build public infrastructure so we have cleaner water, better public transit, safer bridges, better highways, etc. I am loath to say to every municipality that they have to hire a bunch of accountants to report back on a day-to-day basis or an hour-to-hour basis how many people are being employed. I would encourage members to look in their own constituencies, look in their own regions, talk to their municipal leaders, get the list of the projects, go to the Internet where all the details are, travel around, and see the work that's being done. I think it's pretty positive.

[The Chair, Liberal, Yasmin Ratansi]

Thank you.

Before I go to the second round, Mr. Martin, since the minister has agreed that they will stay here till 5 p.m., would you like to withdraw your motion?

[Pat Martin, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

Sure.

[The Chair, Liberal, Yasmin Ratansi]

Could I have unanimous consent that this motion be withdrawn? Yes? Is there unanimous consent from the government side that we're withdrawing the motion?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

[The Chair, Liberal, Yasmin Ratansi]

Thank you. We'll proceed now to the second round.

Madam Foote, you have five minutes.

[Judy Foote, Liberal, Random—Burin—St. George's, NL]

Thank you, Madam Chair. It was interesting listening to the Parliamentary Budget Officer at our last committee meeting. We sensed his frustration at not being able to get the information he felt he needed to do his job. His only recourse, in fact, was to rely on committees like ours to get the information for him, to enable him to do the job.

So I'm pleased to hear you have in fact dropped off information for him. And you've referenced the expenditure by the U.S. in terms of having a very good reporting mechanism, but in fact the Parliamentary Budget Officer told us there were a number of countries that had a much more robust quarterly reporting than Canada does. I think when we're talking about the significant expenditure of taxpayers' dollars, it's all about being accountable and transparent in how that money is being spent.

So that's why we're here. That's why we're asking for these answers. I'd like to know if the information you dropped off to the Parliamentary Budget Officer talks about the project, the location, and the amount or the value of the project. Did you as well include the amount of money that has actually been already spent on the projects, not just the value of the project but how much has already been spent?

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

Sure. Our goal is to have the most robust delivery of the stimulus, not necessarily the most robust Internet site. I think if you compare Canada to the other G-7 industrialized countries, we would compare very favourably. I can't tell you on a day-to-day basis.

I mentioned that Quebec hasn't submitted their first invoice yet. I can't tell you where every single project is because they submit it by invoice. In Newfoundland and Labrador, we gave them their full per capita spending four months ago, and in Newfoundland they had the highest number of government tenders ever go out. Until they submit the invoice, we can't say on a day-to-day basis whether the steel has arrived, whether the workforce has been paid.

I could call upon my associate deputy minister, John Forster, to give you a better sense with respect to your question.

[Judy Foote, Liberal, Random—Burin—St. George's, NL]

What I'm looking for is whether or not the information you gave Mr. Page includes the amount of money that's been spent to date on all of the projects that have been approved and announced.

[John Forster, Associate Deputy Minister, Infrastructure Canada]

Thank you.

I'm happy to describe what we've given him. As the minister mentioned, today we dropped off over 4,400 pages of information on 3,000 projects that were approved under the stimulus fund. What the Parliamentary Budget Officer asked for was two things in September. One was information on the projects that were approved, which is what we provided to him. The second thing he asked for, and when he asked for it in September it did not exist, was information on the claims that had been provided in the quarterly claims submitted by provinces. At the time he asked for it, in September, we did not have complete claim information provided by all provinces and territories, so it was not possible for us to respond to him.

[Judy Foote, Liberal, Random—Burin—St. George's, NL]

At this point, then, the information you've given him does not have the actual money that's been spent to date on the infrastructure projects?

[John Forster]

What we provided him today is a list of all the stimulus projects approved, where they are, what the project is, the cost of the project, and the federal-provincial contributions.

Sorry, I'll get to your answer. What we've indicated to him is that this is the first cycle of claims under a brand-new program on 3,000 projects, so we're going back with the provinces and territories and reviewing the information they provided, clarifying it. They have questions, we have questions, so as that data is verified and accurate and complete, we will then be providing it to him over the coming weeks--on the claim information that's provided.

We've given him a complete data set on all the projects and we've done that within 37 days of his request. I would point out that other requests responded to, to him, range anywhere from 25 days to 125 days, and the rest of the--

[Judy Foote, Liberal, Random—Burin—St. George's, NL]

Okay, I appreciate that, Mr. Forster. I was looking for yes or no, or if you could give us the dollar figure, and apparently you can't because of the mechanism of the report.

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

The difference is, until Newfoundland submits their invoice.... I drove by a project this morning, a public transit expansion of some bus shelters at Baseline Station for Ottawa-Carleton Regional Transit, and there's a certain amount of construction going on; there are people at work. The City of Ottawa has not yet submitted their invoice to the province.

So we, the 200 people who work at Infrastructure Canada, lack information for the 7,600 projects across government that would have been funded, until the provinces submit the invoices for payment. Just like for the home renovation tax credit, not a dollar of it has been spent because people haven't submitted their income tax forms yet.

[Judy Foote, Liberal, Random—Burin—St. George's, NL]

I would expect if we're a year into it, construction has already taken place on some of these projects; dollars have been spent and invoices have been in and have been paid, I would hope, for some of those municipalities--

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

Every invoice has been paid. They are paid within 30 days. You can talk to your government in Newfoundland and Labrador. I think they'll say that the relationship has been very constructive and very productive.

[The Chair, Liberal, Yasmin Ratansi]

Thank you.

Mr. Dorion, you have the floor for five minutes, please.

[Jean Dorion, Bloc, Longueuil—Pierre-Boucher, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

My question is for Minister Baird.

The media has reported that stimulus spending has not been uniform across the country. In your opinion, has federal stimulus spending been allocated equally across the country?

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

I would say, with respect to the infrastructure stimulus fund, for example, that it's been fairly well distributed. Others have said that. Mr. Martin, the vice-chair of this committee, just said that. In the case of your province, Quebec, you got your per capita share. In Quebec's case, they have the law that requires the federal government, in areas of provincial jurisdiction, to work with the province. That is not something I have a problem with. I respect that. So we work with the province.

We don't make all the decisions about how the money is spent. Generally speaking, we try to ensure that it is spread evenly around the country. Does that mean that it is done by electoral district? Not necessarily. For example, here in Ottawa, there is a convention centre that happens to have been built 100 metres inside the riding of Ottawa—Vanier, but it will be of benefit to the entire region, frankly, on both sides of the river. Carleton University is building across the river from the Ottawa South riding, but it will benefit people across the region, and indeed in the country. Generally speaking, we have tried to make an effort to ensure that it is fairly well distributed.

It won't be perfect on an electoral boundary by electoral boundary basis. But generally speaking, we look at all regions of Quebec. We look at all regions of Canada. We've tried to ensure that it is, by and large, fairly distributed.

We are only one player of the three. Some municipalities requested very little money. Others requested substantially more money. Some municipalities came to the table with phenomenal projects. One municipality requested money to build a new house for an elephant at their zoo. I didn't think that was a very good idea to fund, and we didn't. It depends on the quality of the project.

I am a former environment minister. Quebec has put great priority on clean water. We have a partnership with them, something called PRECO, that works very well. They have responded to a pretty core infrastructure need very well.