Evidence of meeting #46 for Government Operations and Estimates in the 40th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was impact.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Paul Rochon  Senior Assistant Deputy Minister, Economic and Fiscal Policy Branch, Department of Finance
Yaprak Baltacioglu  Deputy Minister, Office of the Deputy Head, Infrastructure Canada
John Forster  Associate Deputy Minister, Associate Deputy Minister's Office, Infrastructure Canada
Benoit Robidoux  General Director, Economic and Fiscal Policy Branch, Department of Finance
Clerk of the Committee  Mr. Marc-Olivier Girard

3:30 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Yasmin Ratansi

Order.

Committee members, we will continue on with what are hopefully our closing studies on the economic stimulus package.

We have before us, from the Department of Finance, Mr. Paul Rochon, the Senior Assistant Deputy Minister; Monsieur Benoit Robidoux, General Director; and from Infrastructure Canada, Madam Yaprak Baltacioglu and Mr. John Forster; welcome again.

I understand you have some presentations with you that you will be talking about. Then we will start our questions.

I would like to ask the committee if we could finish around 5:05, so that we can discuss for the final 10 minutes what we want to do on Thursday—we have three options given to us for Thursday—because at 5:15 the bells will start ringing and then we'll have to go.

So at 5:05, if everybody is mindful of the clock...

À 17 heures? C'est parfait, oui.

With that, who is doing the presentation?

It's Monsieur Rochon?

Go ahead, please.

3:30 p.m.

Paul Rochon Senior Assistant Deputy Minister, Economic and Fiscal Policy Branch, Department of Finance

Thank you very much. It is a pleasure to be here with Benoit Robidoux and my other colleagues.

I thought what I would do very briefly, just to open up the session and provide some context for our discussion, is give you a very quick overview of how the Department of Finance estimated the 220,000 jobs maintained or created by the action plan that we had published in the budget and in subsequent reports. We have a short presentation that we can go through fairly quickly.

At the outset, it's important to recognize that we say “maintained or created”, because in a recession what we're largely talking about is maintaining or protecting jobs as opposed to new job creation.

The first major point is that the approach we've taken is a model-based approach. While I think it's fair to say there's no consensus on how to go about estimating jobs and output impacts of these types of policy changes, by and large, when we look around the world, the consensus seems to be that a model-based approach is the way to go. That is for two primary reasons. First, models allow one to isolate the impact of the specific policy measures against everything else that's happening in the economy—for example, in the current context, changes to monetary policy, changes in the status of external demand in other countries. Second, the models allow us to capture the various channels of influence that fiscal policy has on the economy, which includes not only the direct influences—that is to say, for example, direct stimulus to housing, which feeds one for one into output—but also indirect impacts on other industries and the induced effects that these types of policies generate, particularly in recession periods, via their impact on incomes.

The various avenues of effect are summarized, on page 2 of the handout, in something that we refer to as output multipliers. You've probably seen these not only in our work but in work that the Congressional Budget Office and the Council of Economic Advisers in the U.S. have put out.

Essentially what we're trying to do here is provide you with an estimate of what a dollar spent on any one particular area translates into in terms of output, and then employment. For example, one dollar in infrastructure in the first year translates into about one dollar of output, and by year two, once the indirect and induced impacts build, that's about $1.05.

At the bottom of the table, you see personal income taxes. Generally speaking, one dollar in personal income tax cuts translates into about 40¢ of economic activity in the first year, building to 0.9 in the second year, and then that effect would build over subsequent years. Of course, the reason for the difference between, in this case, personal income taxes and infrastructure is that a portion of that tax reduction is initially saved and not spent. Over time, as the effects build through the economy, so does the overall impact.

Using these multipliers, then, we're able to estimate an overall impact on output, and then based on historical relationships between changes in output and employment, we have come to the conclusion that it's reasonably prudent to assume that for every 1% increase in output, you get a 0.6% increase in employment. The combination of that approach leads us to the conclusion that the plan will create or maintain roughly 220,000 jobs.

I'll just point out in passing that the 220,000 number doesn't really include much of the impact from the work-sharing program, which has seen a large take-up.

In broad terms, that is the approach we used.

There is another consideration. When we look at recent economic developments, we come to the conclusion that, in general, those recent developments more or less correspond to what we were expecting from the package. Essentially, we are looking at an increase of about 220,000 jobs.

Page 3 shows consumer and business confidence. One of the main objectives of the package was to boost this confidence at a time when the world economy and the Canadian economy were in significant decline. You can see that consumer and business confidence has been restored.

On page 4, we see that government investment in the last two quarters of 2009 has increased markedly, with increases of 16% and 25%.

On page 5, we see that residential investment, which was one of the targets of the plan, has been very high recently, especially in renovation activity.

Page 6 shows that, overall, the domestic economy, which was the main objective of the package, remains stronger in Canada than elsewhere.

Finally, page 7 shows that, since March, employment seems to have stabilized in Canada, especially as compared to the United States. The unemployment rate is actually about 1.6% lower than in the United States.

That is the work and the follow-up that we have done since we examined the budget.

Thank you very much.

3:35 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Yasmin Ratansi

Merci.

I guess that's it for the opening remarks.

We'll go to the first round of questions.

Madam Hall Findlay, you have eight minutes, please.

3:35 p.m.

Liberal

Martha Hall Findlay Liberal Willowdale, ON

Thank you, Madam Chair.

A particular thank you to our repeat guests for their additional time.

Thank you for the presentation. I hope to get to this in subsequent questions--it depends on how much time I have--but I will just suggest that we have a continuing concern with relying on models as opposed to facts. These are uncommon times, and we have been focused on looking for actual numbers. We know that in some departments, we and other committees have been able to receive actual job numbers by project. That is something we still seem to be lacking. So I appreciate that the approach here is one of a model base, but I'm not so sure we're completely comfortable that this is the only one we're using.

I want to address a couple of issues we had from our last committee.

I want to thank you, Madam Baltacioglu, for having provided the agreement between the federal government and, in this case, Ontario.

We had been speaking about the need for information on job creation and progress reports. In the last committee meeting, there was a significant effort to suggest that somehow the federal government was not entitled to the information that the province, in this case Ontario, had requested from municipalities for the infrastructure stimulus program.

I just want to read a little bit from the Canada-Ontario agreement:

8. ROLE OF ONTARIO Ontario warrants and commits to:

a) monitor the progress of the Projects;

So there's a positive obligation to monitor progress on the part of the province.

Section 9 specifically refers to progress reports:

9. ACCOUNTABILITY 9.1. Progress Reports

Ontario shall provide Canada with quarterly Progress Reports, commencing on August 30, 2009, (in accordance with the 2009 Budget Implementation Act and subsequent requirements) detailing progress on Implementation of the Projects:

It actually talks about amounts allocated; it talks about amounts received from Canada; it talks about amounts expended on the projects that have been detailed; and it also requires information on projects started and substantially completed.

I note that we have also spent a significant amount of time asking for information on amounts actually expended.

As my first question, has a progress report been received by Ontario--on August 30, I would have thought--and if so, can we get a copy?

3:40 p.m.

Yaprak Baltacioglu Deputy Minister, Office of the Deputy Head, Infrastructure Canada

The honourable member may not have it because of the committee's motion. The committee had asked us for the progress reports, the data sheets that we got from provinces, and we have provided them to the committee.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

Martha Hall Findlay Liberal Willowdale, ON

If I may, we went through significant hoops at the committee to pass a motion to get the progress reports that were referred to in the Ontario agreement with municipalities. We continue to be told that there was no obligation or entitlement for the federal government to see anything, or that there was anything the federal government was entitled to from the provinces.

So I'm now asking specifically. This is the first we have heard that there is a provincial responsibility to provide a quarterly progress report to the federal government.

Do you have a progress report from Ontario that would have been required under section 9.1? We were referring to the agreement between Ontario and the municipalities. In fact, members opposite repeatedly tried to suggest that the federal government was not entitled to see those agreements. I am now saying that in the agreement between the federal government and Ontario, there is a separate requirement for the province to provide its own progress report to the federal government, the first progress report commencing August 30. Do you have that report?

3:40 p.m.

John Forster Associate Deputy Minister, Associate Deputy Minister's Office, Infrastructure Canada

There is a requirement under all of our contribution agreements with each and every province and territory to file a quarterly update to the federal government on the status of the projects, the money expended, and the claims they're making to the fund--i.e., how much the federal government requires.

The committee has already received, as has the Parliamentary Budget Officer, all the claims reports submitted in the first round in August and September. That was provided to the committee at your request. It has also been provided to the Parliamentary Budget Officer.

The second round of information was due in November, and we are about 90% of the way through verifying, cleaning up, correcting errors and omissions, and identifying incomplete data. We haven't yet finished verifying the second round of claims information. You have the first round. You do not yet have the second round.

As for what Ontario collects from its municipalities, further to the meeting last week, the agreement between us and Ontario requires Ontario to provide a provincial report to us. It does not require Ontario to provide us with the data it collects from municipalities and other recipients. We have, as you requested at the last session, gone to our lawyers to ask for legal opinion about whether our contribution with Ontario obligates Ontario to provide that data to us.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Martha Hall Findlay Liberal Willowdale, ON

We don't need a legal opinion. The section in this agreement, section 9.2.3, says that Canada may complete an evaluation of the infrastructure stimulus fund. I'm hoping that the federal government is actually going to be doing an evaluation of the infrastructure stimulus fund.

In full, 9.2.3 says the following:

Canada, at its own expense, may complete an evaluation of the Infrastructure Stimulus Fund for which Ontario agrees to provide Canada with all data and information available for this purpose.

That is a positive obligation on Ontario to provide that information.

3:45 p.m.

Associate Deputy Minister, Associate Deputy Minister's Office, Infrastructure Canada

John Forster

For evaluation purposes—

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Martha Hall Findlay Liberal Willowdale, ON

The only thing we're talking about here, sir, is evaluation of the infrastructure stimulus program and, in particular, two issues that we've been on for some time: money actually spent and jobs created.

3:45 p.m.

Associate Deputy Minister, Associate Deputy Minister's Office, Infrastructure Canada

John Forster

Yes, and you have the money actually spent. All is outlined: how the government has decided to evaluate and estimate jobs created. There's nothing that we have at this point. We have asked for a legal opinion on whether Ontario is obligated to turn that over to us. The initial review said no, but I have asked for a formal legal opinion from the department.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Martha Hall Findlay Liberal Willowdale, ON

With all respect, I think 9.2.3 speaks for itself. I'm not sure why the government is spending money on a legal opinion. It's pretty straightforward that Ontario has an obligation to provide data and information.

3:45 p.m.

Deputy Minister, Office of the Deputy Head, Infrastructure Canada

Yaprak Baltacioglu

Just for the record, we don't have the Ontario job numbers. We don't have them.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Martha Hall Findlay Liberal Willowdale, ON

You do not have Ontario job numbers?

3:45 p.m.

Deputy Minister, Office of the Deputy Head, Infrastructure Canada

Yaprak Baltacioglu

We do not have Ontario's job numbers, because we haven't asked for them. That's important to know.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Martha Hall Findlay Liberal Willowdale, ON

Okay.

Thank you.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Yasmin Ratansi

For the clarification of all members, at the last committee meeting, I had asked the members to agree to my distributing the information that Infrastructure Canada submitted to the Parliamentary Budget Officer. It is unilingual, and Quebec numbers are missing. It contains amounts allocated to projects by Canada, amounts received from Canada through this agreement, and amounts expended on the projects. It is province by province.

The committee said no, so it's not distributed. Okay? Thank you.

Madame Bourgeois.

3:45 p.m.

Bloc

Diane Bourgeois Bloc Terrebonne—Blainville, QC

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Good afternoon, gentlemen; good afternoon, Madam. First, I am going to talk to Mr. Rochon.

Mr. Rochon, I have always had great reservations about model-based approaches and forecasts. Although you consider some contingencies, this is still just a projection.

You say that, thanks to its Economic Action Plan, the government has created 220,000 jobs. I have a lot of difficulty grasping the truth of a statement like that. I am not doubting your work. But thousands of jobs have been lost in Quebec, especially in manufacturing and forestry. You are trying to sell me Canada's, or rather this government's, Economic Action Plan, which is supposed to have created 220,000 jobs, but I am having a really hard time swallowing it.

Then there is the matter of investments in housing. Just last week, some groups in Canada and Quebec said once more that they had not seen one red cent of the money that was supposed to have been invested, in social housing specifically. You understand why I might have my doubts about your opening statement.

You also mention the work-sharing program. It could be said that that program creates no jobs, it just moves the problem elsewhere. In a job with shared shifts, people share the work between themselves, and one group receives employment insurance one week and works the next week, and so on. People who were working now get employment insurance.

So it is difficult for me to accept your figures. Could you just take a few minutes to explain to me how I can accept the figures you have presented?

3:45 p.m.

Senior Assistant Deputy Minister, Economic and Fiscal Policy Branch, Department of Finance

Paul Rochon

First, the figure of 220,000 jobs is for all the aspects of the plan together. There are tax cuts, there are increased employment insurance benefits, including initiatives for training and for sectoral assistance especially to the automobile and forestry sectors.

As for social housing, it is true that spending in Quebec has not moved forward as quickly as in other provinces. But, in some parts of the country, it is moving forward very quickly. At the end of the year, all the money allocated for this year will have been spent.

I agree with you that, in a period of recession, job creation really means job preservation. It is difficult to increase the overall number of jobs during a recession. But there are still 14,000 more jobs in Quebec now than there were in March 2009.

3:50 p.m.

Bloc

Diane Bourgeois Bloc Terrebonne—Blainville, QC

Excuse me, but those 14,000 jobs are temporary. If you want to talk about job quality... Those are part-time jobs.

3:50 p.m.

Senior Assistant Deputy Minister, Economic and Fiscal Policy Branch, Department of Finance

Paul Rochon

Yes, but the employment situation nationally, across Canada, is clearly better than it is in the United States. You cannot spend $27 billion without having some impact. We think that our overall forecasts are quite cautious. They are more cautious than the calculations they have done in the United States.

You say that you would prefer to have facts. You have to understand that job creation and the reporting of job creation are all about estimates, whether they come from the municipalities or macroeconomics. Even municipalities and the federal government do business with a number of subcontractors. So we have to estimate the number of jobs that have been created.

Take the automobile sector as an example. For every 10 jobs directly in the industry, there are 36 indirect jobs. If you asked people in the industry how many jobs they have created or preserved, they will say 10,000, whereas the actual answer is 36,000.

3:50 p.m.

Bloc

Diane Bourgeois Bloc Terrebonne—Blainville, QC

Using your model-based approach still, can we assume that the picture would be different if it were broken down by province?

You are telling me about jobs in the automobile industry, but I am asking you about jobs in Quebec. In Quebec, I know that thousands and thousands of jobs have been lost—more than 100,000, in fact—simply because the economic stimulus package has provided very little to manufacturing and forestry.

Clearly, in Ontario, you are going to create 36,000 jobs because you have poured in billions of dollars. But what about Quebec? Can we get a breakdown by province? Can we see how many jobs you have created?

3:50 p.m.

Senior Assistant Deputy Minister, Economic and Fiscal Policy Branch, Department of Finance

Paul Rochon

That is not something we have done up to now. It would be possible to do it, but it may not be accurate. I do not know if the Department of Finance is able to do it.

If you compare the situation in Quebec to the situation in Ontario, you have to understand that the recession had a greater overall impact in Ontario. In Ontario, 178,000 jobs have been lost to date, and 40,000 in Quebec.

3:50 p.m.

Bloc

Diane Bourgeois Bloc Terrebonne—Blainville, QC

Are those one-year or two-year figures?

3:50 p.m.

Senior Assistant Deputy Minister, Economic and Fiscal Policy Branch, Department of Finance

Paul Rochon

Our calculations were done from the start of the recession, in October 2008.