Evidence of meeting #16 for Government Operations and Estimates in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was million.
A recording is available from Parliament.
3:55 p.m.
Conservative
Patrick Brown Conservative Barrie, ON
Well, I certainly think that coordination has been helpful as well.
I think I saw in your presentation a reference to the Minister of State for Democratic Reform and supporting the cost with that ministry. Could you expand on that as well?
3:55 p.m.
Assistant Deputy Minister, Corporate Services Branch, Privy Council Office
In our department, as I mentioned, we have five ministers as opposed to one, and so it becomes quite expensive. When the Minister of State for Democratic Reform was established, he was provided with a budget of about $900,000, and so we are not able to absorb that.
3:55 p.m.
Conservative
Patrick Brown Conservative Barrie, ON
And what are the other ministries that are supported through the PCO?
3:55 p.m.
Assistant Deputy Minister, Corporate Services Branch, Privy Council Office
We are responsible for the leader of the government in the House; the leader of the government in the Senate; the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs, President of the Queen's Privy Council for Canada, and Minister for La Francophonie; the Minister of State and Chief Government Whip; as well as Minister Fletcher.
4 p.m.
Conservative
Patrick Brown Conservative Barrie, ON
Would another explanation for budgetary pressures have to do with the increased number of parliamentary secretaries, too?
4 p.m.
Assistant Deputy Minister, Corporate Services Branch, Privy Council Office
Not in our case, no.
4 p.m.
Conservative
Patrick Brown Conservative Barrie, ON
No. Okay.
Well, I certainly think, given the important work that you've undertaken, that this is certainly value for Canadian taxpayers.
Thank you.
4 p.m.
Liberal
4 p.m.
NDP
Pat Martin NDP Winnipeg Centre, MB
Thank you, Chair.
Maybe I'll start with questioning why we still have a Public Appointments Commission Secretariat when we don't have a public appointments commission.
I accept your answer to the previous questioner, and it isn't your fault, but it just seems like an illusion, a charade.
4 p.m.
Assistant Deputy Minister, Corporate Services Branch, Privy Council Office
The only response I can provide is that as with the public appointments commission itself, which was established by an order in council, the secretariat was also established by an order in council. So in the absence of any indication that there is not going to be a commission established, we still put in the marker for the million dollars and the four FTEs for the secretariat.
4 p.m.
NDP
Pat Martin NDP Winnipeg Centre, MB
If a person didn't know any better, they'd think there's an up-and-running Public Appointments Commission Secretariat that's screening and vetting public appointments to make sure there's no nepotism and no favouritism, and doing all the things that you would want an oversight commission to do. And none of that is taking place.
4 p.m.
Assistant Deputy Minister, Corporate Services Branch, Privy Council Office
Well, the secretariat has done work. They have prepared options to provide to the commission, when it is established, on the code of practice, which is part of their mandate. They are providing advice and assistance on various options around governance selection processes, how to advertise, to PCO.
4 p.m.
NDP
Pat Martin NDP Winnipeg Centre, MB
But really, nothing has changed. It's just like it was under the last Liberal government. The public appointments are done with a big Rolodex in the PMO of friends and party faithful, and nothing has really changed there. But I won't dwell on that.
I wanted to ask you about the advertising as well. This $3.6 million, above and beyond the $42 million they've spent advertising in print, broadcast, and online media to promote the economic action plan, the money is already spent. What are we promoting? What information do we have to give to the public now that it's too late to apply for the money anyway? You could see the home renovation tax credit or something needed an information program so the public would know the program exists and how to apply for it, but a lot of people are starting to say this is really just the government blowing its own horn, or trying to take credit, to feel good about the Conservative brand.
4 p.m.
Assistant Deputy Minister, Corporate Services Branch, Privy Council Office
As I mentioned, first of all, the EAP money, the $3.6 million for PCO, includes no money for actual advertising. The role of the communications in PCO is to coordinate intergovernmental communications, to make sure that events are supported, the announcements are supported, and to do media monitoring. They also continue to give advice on EAP signage and to support the website. Notwithstanding that many of the initiatives are under way, there was a commitment by the government to continue with EAP until the end of 2010-11, and so the website will be in place and all of the activities around maintaining EAP will be in place until the end of the fiscal year.
4 p.m.
NDP
Pat Martin NDP Winnipeg Centre, MB
Just as a layperson's observation, that seems like a staggering amount of money to keep up a website to tell people where the money is already spent.
Given the study we've been doing about the Jaffer affair, what kind of support can the PCO offer to public servants if they've been browbeaten or pushed by staffers in ministers' offices, etc., to fast-track applications? Is there any support service that PCO, as the permanent government...to provide guidance to public servants who may be manipulated or browbeaten, as I said, by the ministerial staff in a situation like that?
I'm thinking of when people are saying, “We have to have the answer to Rahim by Friday, because we're playing golf with the guy in the”--
May 10th, 2010 / 4:05 p.m.
Conservative
Ed Holder Conservative London West, ON
On a point of order, Madam Chair, I always appreciate Mr. Martin's line of questioning, but it seems to me he's calling for certain assumptions of our guests that I don't think are the purview or the intention of them being before us. I'd like to ask you to rule whether that's appropriate questioning.
4:05 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Yasmin Ratansi
I was listening very intently to how he was couching his question, and he's within his limits. I have to give him some latitude. He was asking about the PCO and its function and how it can or can't help people.
According to how I understand where he's coming from, he is within his rights to ask that question.
4:05 p.m.
Conservative
Ed Holder Conservative London West, ON
On the same point of order, Madam Chair, I guess what I'm asking is that, while I appreciate the way you've articulated that point, I think the verbiage chosen by my colleague certainly is extremely leading. I wonder if I could challenge our committee, in the most thoughtful way, to ask these questions at a high level as opposed to using, I think, what would otherwise be considered inflammatory language.
4:05 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Yasmin Ratansi
I do not hear any inflammatory language from Mr. Martin, but if you heard it, and Mr. Martin feels you're right, he can continue on with his questions.
4:05 p.m.
NDP
Pat Martin NDP Winnipeg Centre, MB
Mr. Holder is hypersensitive, I think.
Really what I was asking was where in the budget..., In the context of the budget, I suppose, where and how does the PCO take steps to ensure that public servants are well informed, and even shielded in some way, on how to handle violations of the Lobbyist Act and what to do when undue pressure is put upon them by a minister's office?
Given the fact that public servants responded to a demand from a minister's office to give priority to the Jaffer proposal, what does the Privy Council Office do to protect public servants from that kind of intrusion from political bosses?
4:05 p.m.
Assistant Deputy Minister, Corporate Services Branch, Privy Council Office
The counsel may want to make a comment, but as any public servant, we are covered by the code of conduct and the values and ethics code, so we know that we have, as public servants, the ability to go to our senior managers and certainly to our deputy. We also have other avenues through the integrity officer.
So there are ways and means of protection for public servants. It's more under the Treasury Board Secretariat, who is the employer, as opposed to the Privy Council Office.
4:05 p.m.
Deputy Secretary to the Cabinet and Counsel to the Clerk of the Privy Council, Legislation and House Planning and Machinery of Government, Privy Council Office
This clerk, and the previous one, because I have served both of them in the last four years, have been insisting in just about every forum where they appear on the fact that the public service must serve its political masters in a non-partisan way. It is, I think, understood throughout this system that such is to be the case.
One would expect that if situations present themselves, and I'm certainly not going to suggest they do because I do not know, but assuming they present themselves, within departments mechanisms are in place. Integrity officers exist. It is the expectation that the deputy ministers will apply those same sets of values we're now talking about such that if an issue of that nature presents itself, it is going to be elevated and be dealt with accordingly.
4:05 p.m.
NDP
Pat Martin NDP Winnipeg Centre, MB
[Inaudible--Editor]...the whistle-blower officer, for instance. I mean, if you were a public servant and you felt you were getting undue political pressure, that might be one of your avenues of recourse?
4:05 p.m.
Deputy Secretary to the Cabinet and Counsel to the Clerk of the Privy Council, Legislation and House Planning and Machinery of Government, Privy Council Office
And that person is an officer of Parliament; but within the organization itself, you don't necessarily need to go outside. It is understood in our culture that we are dealing with these matters in a non-partisan manner, and if there is an infringement or a violation of this, within the organization it should be possible for people to go to their managers, go to the senior level, for the matter to be addressed squarely. And I can assure you that if that were the case, that would be addressed squarely.