Government Operations Committee on Oct. 7th, 2010

[Paul Calandra, Conservative, Oak Ridges—Markham, ON]

Okay.

Let me ask you one last question, which I think Mr. Regan had brought up, with respect to people with disabilities. I'm somewhat concerned that perhaps the Government of Canada is not viewed as a friendly spot.

On Tuesday I hosted Vision 2020 here on the Hill. One of the presentations was from a young lady who was visually impaired. She showed some of the equipment that is now available in the workplace that truly makes it easy for her—not easy, I don't want to say that, but easier—to work within that environment.

Do we offer those types of things? Is there also an accessibility issue with respect to the buildings, or a perceived accessibility issue?

I'm concerned that we're not seeing an increase in that. I know that, of course, through the economic action plan we're addressing some of the accessibility issues with respect to federal buildings, but are there other issues that we can more immediately impact to see a more reasonable increase there?

[Maria Barrados]

I think that in the Government of Canada, with the size that it is, you'll find good examples of practice. I have people coming to work with Seeing Eye dog, and they have all the computer equipment, and I'm sure there are others who have as well. I'm not sure it's across the board. That may be an issue.

In terms of access, I think this again is an issue where maybe some places are very good. The Government of Canada is spread out in many buildings across the country and I'm not sure it's the same standard everywhere. I think we can be a very good employer for the disabled, but I'm not so sure that message is out there.

[Paul Calandra, Conservative, Oak Ridges—Markham, ON]

Thank you.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Chris Warkentin]

Are you finished, Mr. Calandra?

[Paul Calandra, Conservative, Oak Ridges—Markham, ON]

I am. I don't know if Mr. Calkins has anything.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Chris Warkentin]

Mr. Calkins, do you have any questions--or does anyone else?

[Blaine Calkins, Conservative, Wetaskiwin, AB]

I do have some questions. Is this my five-minute time, or is this...?

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Chris Warkentin]

Well, no, we'll give you another round.

We'll go around, then. We'll go to Madame Bourgeois for five minutes.

[Diane Bourgeois, Bloc, Terrebonne—Blainville, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Ms. Barrados, I want to pick up on the discussions my colleague and I had with you earlier. I am having trouble understanding the situation right now. There are some things that do not seem to make sense, and you may be able to shed light on them.

Do I understand correctly that these agencies helped to fill roughly 4,000 positions?

[Maria Barrados]

That is an estimate because I do not have the real figure, so to speak.

[Diane Bourgeois, Bloc, Terrebonne—Blainville, QC]

According to what we were told, the federal government spent somewhere in the neighbourhood of $1 billion on that in 5 years. That is a lot for an employment agency.

At a time when the government has frozen the budget of virtually every department, and as you, yourself, say in your report entitled, Casual Employment: Sources and Practices: The federal government advertises casual and term job opportunities on jobs.gc.ca [...] open to the general public). Individuals with the necessary qualifications are placed in a pre-qualified pool. Sub-delegated managers can then refer to the list [...]

How can we reconcile a freeze on departmental budgets with the fact that we have spent a billion dollars in five years on agencies, when we have a site, which is open to the general public, that we can use to find qualified staff? Can you explain that to me?

[Maria Barrados]

Ms. Bourgeois, that is an excellent question. I will ask my colleague Donald to answer that.

But I have to point out that the freeze applies to operating budgets. Furthermore, this is a peak retirement period. We have a high rate of employee turnover, and we have to meet public service renewal requirements. In addition, we are constantly being asked to carry out functions that are increasingly complex.

To me, it is very important that all these positions be staffed through our processes and not other means, except for short terms.

Can I really explain all this? It is not easy.

Donald.

[Donald Lemaire, Senior Vice-President, Policy Branch, Public Service Commission of Canada]

If the president is having a hard time explaining it, you can imagine how hard it is for me, as well.

The managers are the ones who make the decisions and who are able to identify what their needs are. This is what we do: we create inventories for administrative positions and other job openings, but we do not place people. It is up to the managers to determine their own needs.

We did not study the reasons why they used a particular inventory over another. We did not look at that in the study, other than a survey question on why they used it. We did not ask them how they identified their needs or how they came to their decisions.

[Diane Bourgeois, Bloc, Terrebonne—Blainville, QC]

In your presentation today, you said that this assessment would contribute to the formal legislative review of the PSEA and that you were going to meet with Treasury Board.

Do you intend to create a sort of coordinating committee or management committee with Treasury Board or certain managers at Public Works and Government Services Canada in order to take steps to stop this shameless spending on staffing. The infamous billion dollars this is costing us is an appalling expense, when, if I understand correctly, the public service has everything it needs to staff positions through its own channels. Do you intend to set up a committee?

[Maria Barrados]

I am on....

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Chris Warkentin]

There are about 30 seconds left for you to answer the question, but we'll give you a little extra time if you need it.

[Maria Barrados]

I am on deputy minister committees, which gives me the opportunity to address these issues. The role of a deputy ministers committee is to give me advice. I use these deputy minister subcommittees to send the message that this is a necessary conversation. It is extremely important to me that we have these discussions under the current system. Creating a special committee is risky because it is completely outside the system that works. My experience has been that deputy ministers and managers want to do things their way, but they need to be encouraged, pushed, and they need to be given tools. It would be incredibly difficult to establish a system to oversee this staffing mechanism of hiring people through temporary employment agencies.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Chris Warkentin]

Thank you.

Mr. Martin has left, so we're going to move over to the next questioner, which is Mr. Calkins. Then we'll go over to....

Excuse me, did you have a...?

[An hon. member]

[Inaudible--Editor]

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Chris Warkentin]

I'm not sure we'll have time today to do that. We'll see how it....

Yes, if you want to share your time, that'll work great.

Mr. Calkins.

[Blaine Calkins, Conservative, Wetaskiwin, AB]

I'm new to this committee. I think this is my third committee meeting here, and this is my first opportunity to hear testimony and a presentation from the Public Service Commission. So I'm probably going to come across as a little bit rough around the edges, but I hope you'll bear with me.

As I've been reading through the analysts' preparation from the library and taking a look at some of the other notes I have, including your reports, I've come to a couple of conclusions in my head, and I hope you can tell me if those conclusions are accurate or not.

You say in your report that the Public Service Commission says that women, visible minorities, and aboriginal people are now being hired to the public service in proportions exceeding their respective workforce availability. So I'm reading in there that there are actually more positions available in the public service through affirmative action initiatives than there are people who are actually qualified and applying for those.

I'm also reading that there is no verification of education credentials. My mind tells me right away that if there were verification of education credentials, the pool that is already being drawn from excessively for hiring purposes might, depending on the verification of credentials, actually get smaller.

You've also stated that the current practice of using temporary workers is growing at a rate that some may find alarming. It would seem to me that if employers--the various departments in the administration--are limited in their ability to hire from a talent pool because of our affirmative action policy, they have no choice but to contract out positions. Because if they were to hire--to be blunt about it--a white boy with a master's degree in public administration, that would throw off their numbers when it comes to affirmative action in their departments. So their only option might be that they have to hire somebody on a contracted basis in order to make sure the numbers aren't skewed.

Am I misinterpreting the information of your findings?

[Maria Barrados]

That's not quite the way I see it. The Government of Canada does not have an affirmative action plan. Despite some of the language, there is not an affirmative action plan.

What we do have is--

[Blaine Calkins, Conservative, Wetaskiwin, AB]

If I may, I do want to give you an opportunity to answer, because I want to be clear about affirmative action policies, but I just want to elaborate on my question.

I was listening to various talk radio shows during the summer--I don't know if it was Charles Adler or the Roy Green show--and there was a lady from Alberta, I believe, who was trying to apply to Citizenship and Immigration Canada online but wasn't allowed to: the question asked her what her ethnic background was, and she was denied even making the application into the department based on the fact that she wasn't, I believe, a native Canadian.

You're telling me that we don't have an affirmative action plan. The people I represent in my constituency are telling me they can't get a job based on the colour of their skin.

Could you please square that circle?

[Maria Barrados]

The case you're talking about was not from Alberta but from Ontario--

[Blaine Calkins, Conservative, Wetaskiwin, AB]

From Ontario? Okay.