Government Operations Committee on Oct. 19th, 2010

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, Mr. Head. I apologize, but we are running late. It's a result of our own difficulties.

Mr. Warkentin, please.

[Chris Warkentin, Conservative, Peace River, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I appreciate, Mr. Head, your testimony this morning. We appreciate you coming.

The opposition have come from a different side than I do. I first and foremost want to reiterate the policy of our government, that we believe that victims and the families of victims deserve the best protection. Communities in our country deserve the best protection we can afford.

Numbers that are now old and outdated estimate that the cost of crime in this country exceeds $70 billion. Of that, if you break it down, property crime is at a cost of $40 billion per year. The cost of violent crime—and most of this is actually borne by victims and victims' families--is over $18 billion.

When we're talking about $2 billion, I think we, as parliamentarians, need to remember that we're talking about $70 billion that's being inflicted on victims and victims' families. If we can do a small part, by putting taxpayers' money towards mitigating that damage and the potential for that damage, I think we can do a great thing in that and in protecting our citizens.

In terms of the training that front-line officers have been given, I understand you've gone to great lengths to improve the capacity to address the needs and the specific needs of the inmates. You would know better than most that there's been a significant effort in the last number of years to train front-line service workers to address mental health issues. Could you talk a little more about that and the work that's been done on that front?

[Don Head]

Thanks again for that question.

Over the last two years we've made a significant investment in the training of our staff overall, but very specifically, as it relates to the comment that you made, we have invested in training our front-line staff, starting with our health care professionals, in the area of mental health. As well, we have started in select sites to provide training to front-line correctional officers in terms of how to deal with and manage situations that involve offenders with mental health difficulties. We're continuing to roll out that training package across the country, given the number of individuals we have with mental health disorders. This has been a significant training priority within Correctional Service Canada for the last two years.

[Chris Warkentin, Conservative, Peace River, AB]

I think on this side of the table we believe there is a possibility that everybody who goes into Correctional Services might be able to leave a better person. I know your group has done a great thing in working to change the way in which inmates are treated, in an expectation that there be some accountability while they're doing their time. We also believe there's an important aspect to criminals serving out their sentence so that they might benefit from the entire program and the programming that's available to them.

It's interesting when I hear from the other side that on one hand they believe these criminals should be allowed to be released earlier, but on the other hand they continue to say that in fact if they don't get out we should be afraid of those people while they're in. So we hear comments about safety concerns for our communities and the people working in the prisons, whereas if the measures weren't brought forward to reduce the two for one credit, which really sees the most violent offenders actually retained in prison to serve out their entire sentence.... So there's a real paradox. There seems to be on one side that the members opposite believe that these people should be allowed to be released, but on the other hand they see that they are a risk to the community or to individuals--

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Do you have a question? I'm hoping you're coming to it.

[Chris Warkentin, Conservative, Peace River, AB]

I certainly would hope that I haven't scratched away at a sensitive spot, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

I'm certain we could bring opposition members to be witnesses.

[Chris Warkentin, Conservative, Peace River, AB]

I've seen that there's a difference of opinion.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Continue.

[Chris Warkentin, Conservative, Peace River, AB]

The question is, as prisoners serve out their time and as they live out the full extent of their sentence, do you find that prison inmates, for the most part, respond well to the rehabilitation that's offered within the prison system?

[Don Head]

Thanks for that question.

We find very clearly through our research that offenders who participate in programs are more likely to reintegrate back into the community in a non-reoffending manner. For us that is important. We know through the various programs that we deliver and the research that we've done that the results speak for themselves. Our overall public safety results in terms of offenders who come back into the system for reoffending in a violent way or in a non-violent way continue to be some of the best results for any corrections jurisdiction around the world. That is primarily because of the programming approach we take within the Correctional Service of Canada.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

You have two and a half minutes left.

[Chris Warkentin, Conservative, Peace River, AB]

I appreciate that, because I think that draws an important focus towards what we as parliamentarians should be concerned about. We should be concerned, first and foremost, with protecting Canadians in general, with protecting victims, and with working to not see victims revictimized by the perpetrators. That's the first and foremost concern of this government.

I think it's also important that during the time inmates are in prison there is an opportunity for rehabilitation. Clearly, that's an effort.

In terms of the accountability measures for inmates that you're working towards, could you describe them a little bit further? I understand there's an effort to ensure that inmates are engaged in programming. Are there additional accountability measures?

Oftentimes people, average citizens, hear about these different clashes that inmates experience while they're incarcerated. Oftentimes the average population wonders who is paying for this.

Is there any accountability measure if somebody gets out of hand while in prison and bashes up the cell or bashes up the facility? Is there any accountability for those people who are in custody? Do you have any comment on that front?

[Don Head]

Yes, just very quickly, there's accountability for everything, from following their correctional plans or not following them, which will impact their transfers to lower levels of security or their eligibility for a discretionary release granted by the National Parole Board. There are accountability measures for behaviours that are contrary to the rules. They include internal disciplinary measures and sanctions, including placement in segregation, if necessary.

In cases where individuals cause damage, there are opportunities for us to pursue remuneration for the damages they've caused. In the worst cases, individuals inside are still subject to the Criminal Code. When they commit acts against the Criminal Code, they can be further charged under the current system.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, Mr. Warkentin. Thank you, Mr. Head.

Mr. Martin, you have eight minutes, please.

[Pat Martin, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

My problem with following Chris is that I always want to use all my time arguing with him instead of talking to the witnesses.

I come from the prairie region. Winnipeg is my riding. I can't help but note, and I appreciate that you included it in your report, the shocking, alarming, disgraceful overrepresentation of aboriginal people in the jails, at least in the prairie region.

It's my concern, it's my belief—in fact I know for a fact—that those numbers will only be exacerbated by the current tough on crime legislation that is coming down the pike. The very nature of the crimes they've identified are the very types of crimes that will increase and lengthen sentences for aboriginal people.

Can I ask, first, just as a brief question, what, roughly, is the population or the percentage of the population in the prairie region that is aboriginal in terms of inmates?

[Don Head]

It ranges from between 18% to 20%. Oh, you said in the prairies. Sorry, that's CSC overall.

[Pat Martin, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

No, I meant in the prairie region.

[Don Head]

In the prairie region it's much higher, and it varies by institution. In some institutions, such as in our healing lodges, for example, it is almost 100%. It's 50% in some of the other major institutions.

[Pat Martin, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

Those are the numbers I've come across, not the national numbers but in the area I represent. I wish Chris were still listening, because I think he would benefit from...acknowledging, at least, that in that particular case increased prison sentences are not going to prevent crime or reduce crime for that population.

One of my concerns is the contrast between your fairly optimistic report that you'll be able to meet commitments, even in light of the budgetary freeze--which is really the subject of our study--and the report of the correctional investigator that “...on the horizon, several criminal justice-related issues”, etc., “are making their way through the system. They will have downstream impacts.... An increase in the prison population will add to the pressures in a system that is already having difficulty fulfilling its mandate to provide safe and humane custody, and to reintegrate offenders into their communities in a timely fashion.”

That's only one paragraph from a fairly condemning report of the investigator.

I know that education and training have suffered in the institutions in recent years. There used to be salaried staff teachers in Corrections. A couple of the smart guys set up a private company called Excalibur, and they now contract to Corrections. It's not through a school division any more; it's not a supervised curriculum that's useful to the inmates. It's haphazard, thrown together, shoddy teaching at a greater cost than it used to be when they had in-house teachers. Excalibur has been exposed as a sham for years.

I know that the education and training is suffering already, and I can't help but think that if you're going to try to meet the $2 billion in extra expenses, in light of a budgetary freeze, it's going to have to mean stacking up prisoners like cordwood—native prisoners, mostly, in my region—and cutting corners on basic things like education and training that might put them on a proper footing to do something useful when they get out of prison.

I don't see how you can possibly square that circle any other way. Perhaps give us some more specifics on how you plan to find $2 billion over the next five years without cutting off your rations of food or something.

[Don Head]

Sorry, maybe I didn't make myself clear. We don't have to find the $2.1 billion; that money is being added to our budget.

[Pat Martin, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

But there's a budgetary freeze.

[Don Head]

Yes.

[Pat Martin, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

Are you an exception to it?

[Don Head]

No, we're subject to the operating budgetary freeze, like others. This year, as I mentioned, it's $4.8 million that we have to address. Next year it's $6.3 million.