Government Operations Committee on Oct. 19th, 2010

[Peter McGovern]

--we took the opportunity to promote Canada as a high-tech, innovative society by leveraging the presence of the 3,700 media who were there. If, Mr. Chair, the member looks at the Olympic model, he'll note that most of the provinces had pavilions in Vancouver to leverage potential investment. We did the same thing.

I'd address the member's attention to an editorial that appeared in the Globe and Mail on June 29. It's called “Save the Fake Lake!” In actual fact, what that corridor allowed us to do was highlight the connectivity of Canada.

[Pat Martin, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

I'm sorry to interrupt you, sir, but specifically who pushed for the fake lake? Who in your department did that? Did you personally suggest that it would be a good idea to have this fake Muskoka lake rebuilt on the shores of Lake Ontario?

[Peter McGovern]

First of all, the reflecting pool was one dimension of this particular quarter, which comprised three parts. You had the element that was highlighting the Muskoka region. We had an intermediary zone where we highlighted Canadian cuisine. And we had a connectivity dimension where we highlighted Canadian innovation and high technology. We partnered with the Canadian Digital Media Network, which is--

[Pat Martin, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

At the same time, sir, we were paving the streets of Huntsville with gold in the real Muskoka, frankly. You know, everyone would like to showcase how beautiful the Muskoka region is.

Second, whose idea was it to spend that amount of money in Tony Clement's riding for projects that no delegates would ever see—these gazebos, these washrooms that were miles away from any place you ever intended to bring delegates? Who approved the budget for this lavish spending in that minister's own riding that wasn't directly to benefit the G-8 or the G-20?

[Peter McGovern]

Mr. Chair, I think those projects, which were deemed to be G-8 infrastructure projects, are not an element of either my work or Mr. Elcock's work.

[Pat Martin, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

In what budget line would this show up?

[Peter McGovern]

I think the G-8 dimension is a bit of a misnomer. They are infrastructure projects and are administered, if I'm not mistaken, by the infrastructure individuals.

[Pat Martin, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

All right. Could I ask you a specific question, Mr. Elcock, about the RCMP budget?

In the Library of Parliament's report to us, which pulls together the best numbers available, we have under “RCMP” $507,459,000. Would that be roughly what your understanding is?

[Ward Elcock]

Mr. Chairman, I'd have to get back to you. As I said, my office has been closed down for some time, and I haven't seen any recent numbers from the RCMP in terms of actual expenditures.

[Pat Martin, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

These are the best numbers we could come up with through the Library of Parliament.

But I did some math. Even paying an RCMP officer $40 an hour, which is roughly what their charge-out rate would be, for $500 million you could hire 500,000 RCMP officers for three days. That's 10 times the entire armed forces of Canada. We know the real number was more like 20,000 police officers and RCMP combined.

This is what got Canadians frustrated. They're just astronomical numbers that don't really make sense. Even when you do lay it out logically--here's what we budgeted for RCMP and here's what we paid for--you could buy 500,000 of them for three days for that amount of money. People are just.... It makes their blood boil to think of this.

How do you explain a $500 million bill for--what would it be, maybe 10,000 officers? How many RCMP officers do you think were on the ground during the G-8 and G-20?

[Ward Elcock]

Mr. Chairman, the overall security force was roughly 10,000, of which 2,500 were military for specific purposes.

[Pat Martin, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

How many were RCMP?

[Ward Elcock]

Then the breakdown between the RCMP in Toronto and Ontario was.... I can't remember the exact numbers. I'd have to get them for you.

The issue, however, isn't simply salaries, Mr. Chairman. It's also equipment. It's also services that had to be put in place.

[Pat Martin, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

Well, that's where we're not satisfied. As the oversight committee for PCO, that's where we are not satisfied, frankly. If it's only a couple of thousand RCMP officers and not the 500,000 that you could pay for here, then you're spending hundreds of thousands of dollars per person.

[Ward Elcock]

No, Mr. Chairman. To break it down on a per person basis actually makes, I think, little sense.

[Pat Martin, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

Well, when you have to pay the bill, it makes a lot of sense. That's why we're asking for proof.

[Ward Elcock]

Mr. Chairman, I think when the numbers are finally in, it will be clear what the expenditures were for. In some cases, those numbers were announced at the time. In some cases, therefore, radio systems were required. In some cases, installations of towers were required in northern Ontario to allow the police to communicate with each other. A number of expenditures were required as part of G-8 and G-20 security. It was not simply the people.

[Pat Martin, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

From a pure process point of view, from a parliamentary point of view, in the estimates process the amount that was approved in the supplementary and main estimates for the RCMP was $321.5 million. That's the total approved spending.

The Library of Parliament has assessed to date--and you say the numbers aren't all in--$507 million. I mean, there's a spread of almost $200 million there, and we can't find how that spending was approved. Was this by some spending warrant authorized by the Governor General? Was it something that bypassed Parliament altogether?

[Ward Elcock]

Mr. Chairman, I'd have to dig out the specific number that the honourable member is asking for. The reality is that--

[Pat Martin, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

With all due respect, sir, I think you should have come here with those numbers. You have come here before a parliamentary committee specifically to answer questions about the spending. The fact--

[Ward Elcock]

Mr. Chairman, we don't--

[Pat Martin, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

--that the door has been closed for a while is not much comfort to us.

[Ward Elcock]

Mr. Chairman, as I said, we don't actually have a final number for RCMP expenditures at this juncture. The numbers that were included in estimates are the numbers that were included in estimates, and those are the numbers the RCMP was authorized to spend.

The estimates numbers, however, do not include such things as EBP and accommodation numbers, which would be separate. They would in fact appear to be less than the actual expenditures of the RCMP.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, Mr. Elcock.

Can you give the committee an undertaking to reappear before the committee with those numbers?

[Ward Elcock]

I can, at some point, if the committee wishes. The numbers in estimates are the numbers in estimates, and I couldn't provide anything better than those. In terms of the final numbers, it won't actually be my responsibility to deal with the final numbers, but I'd certainly be happy to come back at that point in time.