Evidence of meeting #34 for Government Operations and Estimates in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was sauvé.
A recording is available from Parliament.
10:05 a.m.
As an Individual
I believe there has been a misunderstanding.
The contractors' contracts aren't granted by the architects. That's the responsibility of PWGSC.
10:05 a.m.
Bloc
Marc Lemay Bloc Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC
Do you, as architects, make recommendations concerning those works and the subcontractors or contractors who will do that work under your direction?
10:05 a.m.
As an Individual
In this case, the recommendation we did for this project was that we recommended that there be a process of pre-qualification for this work, as we felt it required contractors who had specialized experience. So we recommended that there be a process of pre-qualification, which Public Works accepted, in this case for the north towers project. Public Works was responsible for the process of pre-qualification and pre-qualifying contractors. It was not our role to do that.
10:05 a.m.
Bloc
Marc Lemay Bloc Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC
You say you recommended that there be a pre-selection because this was special work.
Why did you impose restrictions? Did someone ask you—or was that your decision—to impose restrictions and to be much more specific with regard to that contract?
10:05 a.m.
Bloc
Marc Lemay Bloc Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC
All right.
You are the persons responsible. There's a contract for the North Tower. You're asking for subcontractors for a very specific job, if I've correctly understood.
10:10 a.m.
As an Individual
May I answer that question in saying the following? The first pilot project done on the West Block, because the building is large and there are many lessons are to be learned from the masonry conservation, was the southeast tower restoration, which I believe you heard last week has just won a prize for the quality of the restoration work. That was the first project done on this building, and we proceeded with a pre-qualification for that first and foremost.
When you are working with historic masonry that is load-bearing, like the West Block and like any of the buildings on Parliament Hill, it is common practice--and RPCD recognizes this--that you need masons who have expertise in masonry restoration as opposed to just masonry. Therefore, there was a pre-qualification for the southeast tower process, which was successfully done. They followed a similar—
I'm sorry, Mr. McKay, am I being too long?
10:10 a.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal John McKay
Please finish your answer. I've given Mr. Lemay a bit of discretion because of the point of order.
No, please finish your answer.
10:10 a.m.
As an Individual
So that process was repeated for the north towers. The north towers process was not the first time that pre-qualification was used. It was the second time.
10:10 a.m.
Conservative
Chris Warkentin Conservative Peace River, AB
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thanks to both of you for showing up this morning. We appreciate your testimony.
Quite frankly, I'll say to each of you that I am honoured, and I think we are honoured as Canadians, to have you before us. If Canadians truly understood who we have before us today, they would recognize that we have two individuals here who have an international reputation as well as a reputation that precedes them in their work of rehabilitating buildings and their architectural expertise.
To have you working here on Parliament Hill is really something of a feat for the federal government. Thank you so much for your dedication and your work to preserve what is a national historic site and, really, a symbol of our democracy. You really are the right people for this job, and we appreciate your work.
I understand that you've been involved here on the Hill on the rehabilitation project since 1995. Is that correct?
10:10 a.m.
Conservative
Chris Warkentin Conservative Peace River, AB
We thank you for that.
Today it seems to me that we have members who have asked that you to come to our committee today and who were of the understanding that they might hear something in terms of political motivations and the rest. It's clear to me that you have undertaken your work in the most professional manner, so I think it's important that we, at this committee, have an opportunity to talk to you about the project you're undertaking.
We understand that you attended a political event, but that was for deeply personal reasons. We appreciate that. I think it's important for us, as a committee, to respect those reasons. Just because you work for the federal government in one capacity doesn't preclude you from being able to involve yourself in political activities.
I think it's important that we now talk about the project at hand. There's been some discussion about the cost of the rehabilitation of the West Block. I think there's been a lot of confusion, with different numbers going out about the rehabilitation of the West Block. A number in excess of $700 million has been reported as being allocated for the restoration.
The thing that I think Canadians don't understand, or that maybe the media has misrepresented, is that a good portion of that money is actually allocated for moving the people who are currently in West Block to other accommodations and for rehabilitating those other accommodations to have them well suited. Approximately $27 million, I believe, has been spent on the restoration and the rehabilitation of the projects being undertaken right now.
There is the south tower, which you were involved in. Is that right? It was the southeast tower.
10:10 a.m.
Conservative
Chris Warkentin Conservative Peace River, AB
Now, there were lessons learned from that, and I think it's important for us as committee members to fully understand the challenges that come into play when we're talking about historic masonry. Can you give us some of the lessons learned from that and tell us how they will assist us in the rehabilitation of the rest of the building?
10:15 a.m.
As an Individual
Well, Mr. McKay, I think you're going to have to give me a time signal, because I can talk about this for hours.
10:15 a.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal John McKay
Mr. Warkentin's soliloquy was about three and a half minutes, so you have the balance of eight minutes.
10:15 a.m.
As an Individual
I see. I will be quite brief.
On the issues with the southeast tower, one of the lessons learned was that we were able to do investigations. We were able to understand and to anticipate what we were going to find. In fact, that project came in under budget.
We were satisfied that we had learned lessons that were if you do exploratory openings and do testing.... The analogy is that you have a home where you don't know what you're going to find when you open up the walls. If you can do preliminary investigations, then the lessons learned in that will inform the tender documents and will help to inform the contractors in their work, and the project will go more smoothly than it might if you did not do that preliminary investigation.
10:15 a.m.
Conservative
Chris Warkentin Conservative Peace River, AB
Now, in talking to some of the people who have been working on the West Block rehabilitation, as well as on other projects on Parliament Hill, it seems to me that there are significant costs in doing the job wrong. This has been identified in some of the masonry work that has been done over the years to try to patch and different things, which actually exacerbates the problems.
10:15 a.m.
Conservative
Chris Warkentin Conservative Peace River, AB
So your work is instrumental if we're going to preserve this. Can you speak to that a little bit?
10:15 a.m.
As an Individual
Well, all I can say is that you're quite right that since it was determined in the 1960s to keep the building, there has been a lot of work done that has sometimes not been state of the art, because the state of the art was not as advanced as it is today.
One example of that would be using mortar that is too hard for the building stone that surrounds it and therefore causes breakage and spalling of the stone itself. So some of the costs for the southeast tower were for removing Portland cement mortar and replacing it with a mortar that is softer and more compatible with the stone.
So you're right, but that's part of the evolution, I suppose, of science. I think none of the intentions before were malicious.
10:15 a.m.
As an Individual
They were just not as scientifically based as they are today.
10:15 a.m.
Conservative
Chris Warkentin Conservative Peace River, AB
Can you talk about the number of other projects in the entire country that would reflect the complexities of this one in terms of the metal work, the masonry, and all the different things that make this unique? Can you give our committee some scope to fully understand this?