Government Operations Committee on Nov. 23rd, 2010

[Paul Sauvé]

Approximately that, yes, if memory serves me.

[Diane Bourgeois, Bloc, Terrebonne—Blainville, QC]

Fine, thank you.

In your presentation earlier, you alluded to architects who apparently lobbied you. Does the name Gersovitz ring a bell?

[Paul Sauvé]

I'm familiar with Fournier Gersovitz Moss and Associates architectural firm. They were equal partners in the ARCOP Group carrying out work on both towers of the West Block.

[Diane Bourgeois, Bloc, Terrebonne—Blainville, QC]

Did they ask for the initial contract to be changed? Did they make that request or did you?

[Paul Sauvé]

I don't think they asked for any changes. I studied in Strasbourg and worked on castles as well as the cathedral in Reims, which is unique in the world, and as a result, I think it's pretty sad to see the method used here, which involves encasing buildings in a steel structure and using a footing against frost, insulating material, heating and humidification, as if the stones in Ottawa were more valuable than stones anywhere else in the world. This is the only place on the planet where buildings are restored in that way—and I'm thinking here of the Louvre, as well as the great cathedrals of France and elsewhere in Europe, which are probably the most valuable in the world.

We talked about the possibility of doing things differently, given that this is the way it's done everywhere else in the world. However, because of the tradition established by Thomas Fuller Construction, Richard Moore and company, the Gersovitz firm and ARCOP were vehemently opposed. They never wanted to try to innovate or let us take any initiative whatsoever to have the work done properly, but at a much more modest cost.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, Mr. Sauvé and Ms. Bourgeois.

Welcome to the committee, Mr. Petit. You have eight minutes.

[Daniel Petit, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

Thank you very much.

Good morning, Mr. Sauvé.

Earlier you gave us a Power Point presentation on your company. You talked about companies that are not bankrupt, but I would like to know which one is.

[Paul Sauvé]

LM Sauvé has been in business for 56 years. The entity that had the contract for Parliament also had one for City Hall. Unfortunately, once that contract and one for City Hall were withdrawn, we had to place that company, which belonged to the LM Sauvé group, under the protection of the Bankruptcy and Insolvency Act. We also sought protection under the Companies' Creditors Arrangement Act.

[Daniel Petit, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

Mr. Sauvé, when did you begin to do business with the tattooed individual you introduced to us, namely Mr. Normand Ouimet?

[Paul Sauvé]

First of all, Mr. Petit, I did not do business with Normand Ouimet. I went to the National Bank of Canada to clarify the issues relating to the St. James United Church project. The National Bank of Canada, along with the Royal Bank of Canada, were involved in funding the St. James United Church project. Because our company had been well established for a long time and had a solid base in both Montreal and across Quebec, these people recommended that we deal with an institution which is one of the only ones that provides loans to the construction industry. That institution was the Fonds de solidarité which is a chapter of the FTQ. When we--

[Daniel Petit, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

Not too fast, please. You say the Fonds de solidarité was the only institution giving loans to the construction industry? Is that what you're saying?

[Paul Sauvé]

I said “one of the only ones”.

[Daniel Petit, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

It's a well-known fact that the Fonds de solidarité in Quebec is the FTQ. Is that what we're talking about?

[Paul Sauvé]

Yes.

[Daniel Petit, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

The public are listening to us today and it's important that people clearly understand everything. I would like to know when you began to do business with Mr. Ouimet and at what point he was forced on you. What was the date and in what year?

[Paul Sauvé]

Let me just repeat, Mr. Petit, that I did not do business with Normand Ouimet. We applied to the Fonds de solidarité, the section of the FTQ that deals with funding. It was towards the end of the St. James United Church project—in 2004, I believe.

[Daniel Petit, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

You use masons in your work. Does a placement office, which is actually managed by the FTQ, send you masons so that you can work on certain projects in Quebec?

[Paul Sauvé]

Of course, Quebec is the only place in the country where the entire labour force is subject to legal provisions. Almost 50 years ago, at the time of Mr. Bourassa and Mr. Cournoyer, the Quebec Construction Commission was set up, the result of which was that unionization and competency cards became mandatory. Of course, we do occasionally call on central union bodies and their placement offices to secure workers, but I can tell you that at the time, the FTQ had very little involvement in the masonry industry. The International, a very large globally-based union, had more members. We rarely called on the FTQ; more often than not we used the International.

[Daniel Petit, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

Mr. Sauvé, you made certain statements to Radio-Canada. In an interview that you gave on June 16, 2009, you mentioned that the construction industry—I imagine you were still in business at the time—had been infiltrated by the Hells Angels. Where did you get that information from? Did you see any at FTQ? What are you saying? It was you talking at the time.

[Paul Sauvé]

Mr. Petit, I repeat that we are still in business. I referred a little earlier to several projects that we carried out last summer and others that have yet to begin.

I do not have the transcript of the interview with Radio-Canada in front of me, but I did see some of the people who run FTQ-Construction—I'm thinking in particular of Jocelyn Dupuis—become very closely associated with the Grues Guay Company and Mr. Ouimet. They are one and the same, in my opinion; they are family.

[Daniel Petit, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

Is that what you mean when you say it has been infiltrated not only by the Hells Angels but by organized crime? Is that what you are talking about when you give an interview to Radio-Canada and say that the FTQ has been infiltrated by organized crime and the Hells Angels? Did you have knowledge of that, or is it only what you heard on Radio-Canada that prompts you to say that today?

[Paul Sauvé]

Do you have children, Mr. Petit?

[Daniel Petit, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

Yes, I have four. Not bad, eh?

[Paul Sauvé]

When one of your four children and your parents have received phone threats, when your cranes have been set on fire, when you yourself have received death threats, and when your vehicles have been vandalized while you were in them, I think you will be more qualified to determine that Quebec has a serious problem, that the industry which was previously a little better regulated than today is probably overregulated now. The fact is that this has created tariff barriers and organized crime, whose tentacles extend into the major unions, including the FTQ, is proliferating throughout the industry.

[Daniel Petit, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

Mr. Sauvé, I'm a little surprised. You are attacking the largest central union body in Quebec, the FTQ, and telling us that it has been infiltrated by the Hells Angels and organized crime. That is what you are telling us today. You are under oath.