Government Operations Committee on March 22nd, 2010

[Martha Hall Findlay, Liberal, Willowdale, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair, and thank you, Minister, for being here.

I hate to do this to you, but I'm not going to let you off the hook. Two of my colleagues have tried this, and I'm going to continue down the same path, because with all respect, we are very concerned--I think you can tell--about the potential padding of certain budgets here before a freeze, so that there's benefit after the freeze.

In the PCO, we have an increase of $13.4 million, to $74.5 million. I prefer to work with numbers. I understand you said the freeze would be net of any extraordinary expenses, but I really want to nail this down because that could include any amount of a certain amount of water in a glass. You have specifically referred to three items as being part of that increase. One is $6.4 million for what you have referred to as “chronic underfunding”. I'd love to know, given the increases in past budgets, what could have been chronically underfunded, but I'll save that for another time. That would leave $8.7 million for the G-8, the G-20...and as you have also referred to the winding down of offices for the Olympics, I think Canadians would love to know why it costs even more to wind something down, but, again, that's more detail than the time I have.

So $8.7 million for two things that are very clearly extraordinary items. Can I get a commitment...? Even if the $6.4 million for the underfunding were kept, that would mean that the budget for the PCO in 2011-12 would be frozen, in fact, at $65.8 million. Can you confirm, then, that the budget for PCO--absent of potential future requests, as you've highlighted--for 2011-12 will then be frozen, and not at $74.5 million, but in fact at $65.8 million?

[Stockwell Day, Conservative, Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC]

The main estimates are clear and the major increases are broken out. The main estimates for the department for 2010-11 are $143.9 million, and that is an increase, as you've duly noted, over the previous year.

[Martha Hall Findlay, Liberal, Willowdale, ON]

But the question was very specific; it was about a relatively distinct portion of the increase for the PCO that we want to have confirmed is not going to be used as padding for future PCO budgets. So those are extraordinary items. If you can tell me that there are other items that aren't extraordinary.... But if that's what you have said and that's true, then the freezing of the 2011-12 budget for PCO would in fact be at $65.8 million.

[Stockwell Day, Conservative, Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC]

I can assure you there is going to be no padding anywhere. When it comes to anybody's budgets, all expenditures are going to have to be not just accounted for but they're going to have to be approved and agreed on beforehand. And I'm trying to be clear on this point. When there are year-to-year increases that are seen to be as a result of what we'll call “extraordinary” situations--“extraordinary” meaning those types of situations that don't normally come up in a budget year--we've been very clear--

[Martha Hall Findlay, Liberal, Willowdale, ON]

I understand there may be extraordinary efforts and a claim for that in future years. I am talking about extraordinary items in this year only that total about $8.7 million. If you've said already that the commitment will be a net of that, I want numbers. I want clarity, because we can all fudge.

I want to know if the budget for 2011-12 is going to be frozen without that $8.7 million that is for extraordinary items--the G-8 and G-20 and the wind-down of the Olympics--this year?

[Stockwell Day, Conservative, Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC]

I don't know how much more clear I can be.

[Martha Hall Findlay, Liberal, Willowdale, ON]

Yes or no would work.

[Stockwell Day, Conservative, Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC]

These are the increases: $7.6 million to support the Privy Council additional operating requirements; $3.6 million to support implementation and coordination of the government-wide strategy on Canada's economic action plan; $3.4 million for collective agreements; and $1.8 million for the operation of the public service renewal task force.

And I've been very clear that for any of these expenses, for instance, that had to do with the G-8 and the G-20, the Privy Council Office budget moves ahead net of those expenses. If a request is made for a certain expense based on an extraordinary circumstance and that extraordinary circumstance no longer exists, as the G-8 and G-20 will not post this year, then they're not going to get the dollars for that.

[Martha Hall Findlay, Liberal, Willowdale, ON]

I would argue that the economic action plan would be extraordinary as well because we gave approval for a two-year stimulus plan.

Just as an overall question....

Do I have time for an overall question?

[The Chair, Liberal, Yasmin Ratansi]

Yes, a very quick one.

[Martha Hall Findlay, Liberal, Willowdale, ON]

On a net $22.9 billion overall, only $12.3 billion is in fact, as we understand it, related to stimulus. Can you account for a relatively big increase of $10.6 billion in the overall budget at a time when you're saying you want to restrain? That's a very big increase for this year, only to then say that we'll freeze later on. Can you account for $10.6 billion?

[Stockwell Day, Conservative, Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC]

Are you talking about the overall budget?

[Martha Hall Findlay, Liberal, Willowdale, ON]

Yes.

[Stockwell Day, Conservative, Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC]

It's all broken out departmentally, and I am in a way pleased to hear that you're approaching this from both angles. One, I hear a concern about what's going to be reduced, and on the other hand I hear a concern because it's gone up $10 billion. So I appreciate that.

When you look at--

[Martha Hall Findlay, Liberal, Willowdale, ON]

I'm concerned about padding before you review.

[The Chair, Liberal, Yasmin Ratansi]

I'm sorry, no more questions.

You can finish it off.

[Stockwell Day, Conservative, Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC]

Let me talk about the broad brush increases that we have seen. And then on the minutiae, of course, if there are specific questions, Madam Chair, we can look at it on a department-by-department basis.

But when you consider the increase in the size of the public service itself, it's very significant. You can look at it either over 10 years or year to year. In terms of the public service, there has been a 27% increase in individuals from 1999 to 2009, and a big portion of that was from the time we formed government in 2006. That's a pretty hefty increase. In terms of core public administration, the increase has been over 34%. And this year you have seen a significant increase in the number of public servants over last year.

Two of the main drivers there...we did indicate that we would have the funding in place for an increase in the number of RCMP across the country, and part of that increase is reflected in this year's budget.

We also said we would make sure our armed forces would have an increase in their regular members, up from 63,000 in 2005 to where I think we're at 68,000 plus a few right now.

So in the broad area alone of more public servants, there has been an increase--

[The Chair, Liberal, Yasmin Ratansi]

Minister--

[Stockwell Day, Conservative, Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC]

But it was one that was planned and targeted--

[The Chair, Liberal, Yasmin Ratansi]

--I have to stop you because she asked you a PCO question and you've given her a whole spectrum of the government.

[Stockwell Day, Conservative, Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC]

No, but she asked about the broad picture.

[The Chair, Liberal, Yasmin Ratansi]

We have one last questioner before the minister leaves.

Monsieur Nadeau, cinq minutes, s'il vous plaît.

[Richard Nadeau, Bloc, Gatineau, QC]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

Good afternoon, Minister. I know that you are the president of the Treasury Board and that you are thus not responsible for all government workers. Government agencies and crown corporations come under other budget envelopes, but the fact remains that there are approximately 450,000 government workers in this country, and you are responsible for a very large proportion of them.

Earlier, you referred to the 13,000 public servants who leave their jobs for all kinds of reasons. One of our fears is that, given the public service spending freeze announced in the budget, the federal government will, in one way or another, eliminate positions.

Can you confirm to us today that no public service positions will be eliminated and that, given that it will be difficult to find people to replace them, the natural attrition of employees is not a solution either?

[Stockwell Day, Conservative, Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC]

You stated that Treasury Board and its president are responsible for expenditures, but I am not responsible, as you claimed, for the number of people who will continue to work in each department.

In my opinion, it will be difficult to continue with the departure of 13,000 people each year, but that is up to each department to decide. I believe that people will continue to leave their jobs with the government, but there will be others who will start to work in government jobs. It is a normal process.

[Richard Nadeau, Bloc, Gatineau, QC]

You are referring to new hires.