Evidence of meeting #48 for Government Operations and Estimates in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was going.
A recording is available from Parliament.
12:40 p.m.
Deputy Minister, Department of Industry
No, but I have the opportunity to involve myself in various files when they surface, such as the census matter last summer.
12:40 p.m.
Deputy Minister, Department of Industry
I do that on a policy level rather than on an operational level.
12:40 p.m.
NDP
Pat Martin NDP Winnipeg Centre, MB
If the 5% expectation is across the board, where are you going to find 5%?
12:40 p.m.
Deputy Minister, Department of Industry
That will be starting next year. Those measures I referred to are for this year and next year. Over and above that, next year there will be--
12:40 p.m.
Deputy Minister, Department of Industry
But other departments, the chief statistician, for example, would have to address his reductions within his bailiwick.
12:40 p.m.
NDP
Pat Martin NDP Winnipeg Centre, MB
What is your strategy for getting to 5%?
Some of us feel there is no fat left to be trimmed, and some of this cutting is “penny wise, pound foolish”. You will just have to be contracting out the work that you have to eliminate. When you cut all the fat away and you're into the flesh and the bones, now you're getting into a substantial impact on your ability to provide the services in your mandate. Five percent may seem like a reasonable amount, but we went through that process under the Liberal government years ago—cutting, hacking, and slashing with program review—and some of those cuts still haven't healed.
I notice you make reference to the number of external consultants you use now. You may be able to find efficiencies there. The reason we went into this consultant phenomenon in Ottawa was that they laid everybody off and then hired them back at $1,500 a day. It's a false economy to lay off somebody who makes $200 a day, give him a big payout, and then hire him back at $1,500 a day. Then we wonder why you can't swing a cat in Ottawa without hitting a consultant.
12:40 p.m.
Deputy Minister, Department of Industry
In my four and a half years at Industry Canada, I have reduced quite markedly the number of consultants we use.
The auto situation was a one-off. If we were going to recommend that the government spend $10 billion, I wanted to have on-the-ground capacity to do the due diligence, so we hired a substantial number of auditors to validate the restructuring plans that GM was giving us. Indeed, the first time out we sent them back because they were inadequate, so I needed to retain external consultants to assist in doing our job, but the overall management approach is to not use management consultants, to not use consultants generally.
With regard to your point about fat and this and that, it's our job, as senior bureaucrats, to manage, and managing is about making choices. It was the same thing when I was working as a deputy minister under Mr. Rae or Mr. Harris. They both had constraints, and you do the best you can with the amount given to you.
What has changed over the last little while is that there is a much greater degree of transparency. Mr. Regan raised a number of points about there not being enough information. There has been a change over the last while with regard to what I would call transparency. I will give you two factoids. We, as a department, have appeared 36 times in front of various parliamentary committees just in this fiscal year. There is much more dialogue taking place between parliamentarians—
12:45 p.m.
NDP
12:45 p.m.
Deputy Minister, Department of Industry
Well, if you come 36 times, some information is bound to dribble out.
12:45 p.m.
NDP
Pat Martin NDP Winnipeg Centre, MB
It's by accident, and it's been like pulling teeth. Anything we really want to know is all of a sudden a cabinet confidence. Government is hiding behind the notion of cabinet confidence. There's nothing new about cabinet confidences. What's new is using them as a way to deny Canadians the right to know their government's plan to dig them out of the deepest deficit we've seen in generations. This paltry amount of savings you're bringing to the table is not going to help the government with a $57-billion deficit. You're talking $3 million and $4 million per year.
I'm sorry we've wasted your time in bringing you here today.
12:45 p.m.
Deputy Minister, Department of Industry
I appreciate there's a delta between our contribution and the broader deficit reduction. Fortunately, there are people above my pay grade who will make up that difference.
12:45 p.m.
NDP
Pat Martin NDP Winnipeg Centre, MB
Yes, I suppose.
It seemed the government was very proud of how they were going to spend their way through the recession. They bought billboards and proclaimed the way they were going to do it. But now when we ask to see the flip side of the coin, how we're going to get out of this deficit situation, it's a dark secret, a cabinet confidence.
We argue that the public has a right to know what the plan is. You know what it is because you sit around the deputy ministers table with the Clerk of the Privy Council, etc., but we don't have a right to know, even though we're parliamentarians.
12:45 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal John McKay
Thank you, Mr. Martin.
Would you like to respond on that, just briefly?
12:45 p.m.
Deputy Minister, Department of Industry
Yes.
Some of the large numbers that do relate to Industry Canada are there. I mean, the large chunk was the knowledge infrastructure program. That was $2 billion that used to be in our estimates and that is going away. We also had the marquee tourism program at $100 million. That was a two-year effort. It's done. It's not coming back.
So there are some specific factoids that do explain the large chunk as it relates to Industry Canada and how we have gone from here to there.
12:45 p.m.
Liberal
12:45 p.m.
Liberal
Siobhan Coady Liberal St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL
Thank you very much.
This is the first opportunity I've had to say thank you for coming. We really appreciate the information you give.
12:45 p.m.
Liberal
Siobhan Coady Liberal St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL
And the good lines.
Just to Mr. Calandra's point, I've known Mr. Dicerni for a number of years. I sat on a couple of boards with him. He has a very distinguished career. We're very fortunate to have him in the federal public service. I'm glad to have him before us today.
Mr. Dicerni, I'm wondering about a couple of key points. First, could you tell me what your attrition rate is this year?
12:45 p.m.
Deputy Minister, Department of Industry
This year is a bit different from previous years. In previous years we have been running at, I would say, a little bit less than 10%. This year we are running at about maybe 6% or 7%.
12:45 p.m.
Liberal
Siobhan Coady Liberal St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL
Okay, great. Thank you.
Now, I'm assuming--you didn't give me a number, but you did give me a percentage--that you're going to fill those positions, save for the 100 that we know you will not be rehiring because of the economic action plan. Is that correct?
