Government Operations Committee on Feb. 15th, 2011

[Diane Bourgeois, Bloc, Terrebonne—Blainville, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Mr. Mallette, for being here with your colleagues. I was very much looking forward to having you here. In my opinion, it's people like you who can give us the best examples of the impact of the freeze on these budget envelopes.

Earlier, you mentioned the role of the Union of Canadian Correctional Officers and the role of CSC, but I forgot to take note of it. Can you tell me about them? You said that the Correctional Service of Canada has one or two roles to play.

[Pierre Mallette]

Under the Corrections and Conditional Release Act, which governs CSC, it has two mandates. I'll explain them simply without reading the text of the act. The first mandate is to protect the safety of the public and ensure that the inmate does not escape. I would say that the mandate relates to security once the inmates are incarcerated.

The second mandate, which is as important, is that, one day, the inmate will be returned to the community. Let's take an inmate from organized crime, for example. He is incarcerated and serves his five-year sentence. Under the new legislation, he has served it fully and completely. Before he is returned to the community, we must be able to equip him to try to give him the opportunity to rehabilitate, as much as possible.

If we arrest an offender, incarcerate him and then return him to the community without trying to give him his chance at rehabilitation, are we fulfilling the mandate of protecting the safety of the public? No.

[Diane Bourgeois, Bloc, Terrebonne—Blainville, QC]

I imagine this happens through services, psychological counselling and programs.

[Pierre Mallette]

Basically. There are a number of services. It depends on the type of inmate. If the inmate has problems with drugs or alcohol, for example, there are specific programs to help him. There are programs for inmates who have problems with spousal violence or external violence. All these programs are one step to help him return to the community.

[Diane Bourgeois, Bloc, Terrebonne—Blainville, QC]

You told us earlier that the prison population has changed. Can you take 30 seconds to tell us more about this?

Which new population is the most difficult?

[Pierre Mallette]

That's a good question, madam. I will answer you by saying that, for example, tomorrow and Thursday I will attend a meeting on gangs.

[Diane Bourgeois, Bloc, Terrebonne—Blainville, QC]

Street gangs?

[Pierre Mallette]

Street gangs, criminalized gangs and gangs that try to take control of institutions with other inmates.

This reality creates problems for managing the population. How can we have street gangs we call the reds, the blues, the Hell's Angels, the Rock Machine, the mafia and make them live together in the same institution? How will we be able to manage these gangs?

It's a significant challenge that we need to look into. I'll go even further. Right now, because of the gang problem, it is becoming more and more difficult at CSC to switch institutions.

In the 1980s, if there were two inmates with behavioural problems at Donnacona, I could transfer them to Archambault. Now, with the management of populations, it's not as easy.

[Diane Bourgeois, Bloc, Terrebonne—Blainville, QC]

There is a correctional institution in my riding. It's in Sainte-Anne-des-Plaines. There is a minimum-security unit, a maximum-security unit and a regional mental health unit.

I'd like to hear your opinion on the mental health unit. According to the correctional investigator, we are seeing more and more mental health problems. Tell me about the consequences of having two inmates with mental health problems in the same cell. Can you also tell me about the impact of the lack of services and programs inside the facility and the impact on the correctional officer who must then return to his family environment? I'd also like you to talk about the bargaining talks that are now under way. I think that you are currently in court against the government.

I would like you to tell me about these three aspects very quickly.

[Pierre Mallette]

First, the data on mental health from recent years show us that the number of mental health-related problems has increased.

The Correctional Service of Canada has five centres across Canada: one in British Columbia, one in the Prairies, one in Quebec, one in Kingston and one in Dorchester, in the Maritimes. I'll tell you that the five centres are operating almost at full capacity.

Actually, we can't put two inmates in the same cell in a mental health unit. Putting people with mental health problems in the same cell would run a huge risk of a serious incident. Something could happen.

Mental health is an area where we, the correctional officers, are faced with serious debates. Is the institution a penitentiary or a hospital? Is the person an inmate or a patient?

There's an energy—

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Mr. Mallette, Ms. Bourgeois' time is up. Ms. Bourgeois is a very intelligent person. She asks three questions in a few seconds. Unfortunately, that doesn't give you enough time to answer.

Mr. Warkentin.

[Chris Warkentin, Conservative, Peace River, AB]

I appreciate your attendance today, and we appreciate that we've given you a limited time to answer our questions. We are looking for short answers.

You speak of the need for additional or expanded facilities. I would ask if you and your membership are supportive of the investments that are going to update and expand facilities.

[Pierre Mallette]

Yes, we are in favour of the expansion. We are happy to see that there are more spaces, but I don't know how we are going to manage them. It's a question I don't have an answer to.

[Chris Warkentin, Conservative, Peace River, AB]

There has been an announcement of over 4,000 new officers, so that is going to address some of those concerns. You're going to see, quite possibly, over 4,000 new members. That would be of interest to you.

You talked about the changing nature of prisoners. You talked about gang involvement and a whole host of other threats that you and your membership are facing. We have heard from other people that the vast majority of prisoners today are non-violent, pose no risk to the general population, and would pose no risk to the guards in the prison system. Do you agree with the statement that the vast majority are non-violent?

[Pierre Mallette]

There are two statements to address. First, when you say that we will have 4,000 more correctional officers, that's not entirely true. We will not have 4,000 more correctional officers; we'll have 4,000 more employees. It won't be just correctional officers.

[Chris Warkentin, Conservative, Peace River, AB]

I appreciate that some of those people will be involved in rehabilitation and other aspects—

[Pierre Mallette]

Your question on the inmate profile is very good and touches a little on what I just said.

I have been an employee with the Correctional Service for 25 years. We have grown by offering programs, giving inmates a chance to take charge of their lives. Now, we are helping with the adoption of stricter sentences. There is new legislation. Are we going to bring inmates back to a situation where they won't have anything left to lose? Are we going to go back to 1982 or 1986, when CSC said that revolving door syndrome happens when inmates stay in their cell all day and do nothing.

[Chris Warkentin, Conservative, Peace River, AB]

You talked about the biker gangs, the Asian gangs, the Russian gangs, and a whole host of other folks who pose a threat to your officers and to your membership.

Do you believe that the vast majority in the prison system today are non-violent and pose no risk to your membership?

[Pierre Mallette]

You know, there is a minority that causes problems. I want to be clear. You are trying to make me say that the inmates are less violent than they used to be. My answer to that question is no. They are better monitored. But the structures without rehabilitation plans or programs that we are currently seeing concern us.

[Chris Warkentin, Conservative, Peace River, AB]

I appreciate that. I know there are significant rehabilitation plans to support those people who need rehabilitation within the prison systems. But I believe that people are going to prison because they do pose a risk to Canadians, to the general population, and that they therefore pose a risk to the prison guards as they go through the rehabilitation process. I appreciate your enlightening this committee that the people who are being sent to prison are threats to your membership and would be threats to Canadians outside the prison system if they were released.

The testimony we heard at our last meeting was that the vast majority of inmates today are non-violent. I think you and your membership would be best positioned to assess the risk that people incarcerated in Canada pose today.

You talk about your desire for pay increases and how this is unfolding.

You question the opportunity for reducing overtime hours. It is important to note that the department and Mr. Head explained that the efforts being undertaken today have yielded significant and real savings. It is not hypothetical. There's an opportunity for savings. In fact, he unveiled for this committee significant savings. Millions and millions of dollars have already been saved as a result of the better management of people's schedules. It is important that your membership is aware of that, and that Canadians are aware that there is an effort being made to better manage the resources. I know your membership will be supportive of that as it affects their lives on a daily basis. When we talk about the savings that would result from overtime savings, it is not hypothetical. It has actually been undertaken, and there is real evidence for it.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, Mr. Warkentin. Unfortunately, there's no time for the response.

Mr. Martin, five minutes, please.

[Pat Martin, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

Thank you, Chair. I'll try to be brief.

In many senses you have one of the most dangerous jobs in the civil service, but in another sense, you have the safest and most secure job in the civil service. Your organization has become the darling, the sweethearts, of the Conservative regime.

You're the manifestation of the glory that is Harper's Rome. You're the only department they see fit to spend any money on at all, in fact billions and billions. Everywhere else they're cutting and hacking and slashing and destroying. But with you, they're building and building.

Are you in collective bargaining now?

[Pierre Mallette]

Yes.

[Pat Martin, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

Well, you should stick it to them now. You should stick it to them and make them pay, I'm telling you.

Do you have the right to strike, or are you a central service?

[Pierre Mallette]

No.