Evidence of meeting #49 for Government Operations and Estimates in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was inmates.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Ian Shugart  Deputy Minister, Department of Human Resources and Skills Development
Alfred Tsang  Chief Financial Officer, Department of Human Resources and Skills Development
Pierre Mallette  National President, Union of Canadian Correctional Officers, Confédération des syndicats nationaux (CSN)

Noon

NDP

Pat Martin NDP Winnipeg Centre, MB

It just doesn't add up then. It really doesn't. Again, the public's right to know is being compromised.

Our fear is that the government is going to balance the books on purely ideological grounds after the next federal election, cutting and hacking and slashing things like KAIROS and things that they ideologically oppose, instead of through some reason or logic. The public has a right to know if that's their plan before the next federal election. It's like pulling teeth, getting the most basic information out of people.

This is not a plan to reduce any significant amount...we would expect you to use this amount of prudence and probity every year. It's not an especially aggressive savings strategy. This is just good management, where you look for efficiencies and better delivery. We expect that continuous improvement every year from every government department. But we're still trying to find the answer to our question, “How do they plan to pay down the deficit?” They're determined not to tell us until the public goes to the polls again.

In fact, they're advertising a bunch of falsehoods, saying they will be in the black. They say, “Give us one majority government and we'll be in the black.” Nobody in the world believes them, including the IMF. We can't even get from our senior bureaucrats what the real plan is. That's the frustration we have here, with all due respect.

We appreciate your presentation, but it doesn't satisfy our problem.

12:05 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal John McKay

Thank you, Mr. Martin. Your time is finished.

I think I have two points of order. May I release the witnesses?

We'll wait for a moment before we deal with the points of order.

I think Mr. Regan is up first.

12:05 p.m.

Liberal

Geoff Regan Liberal Halifax West, NS

Mr. Chair, could we request from the officials the operating freeze reductions for the current year? We haven't heard that.

12:05 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal John McKay

Is that--

12:05 p.m.

Liberal

Geoff Regan Liberal Halifax West, NS

Not necessarily right now, but we haven't heard them.

12:05 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal John McKay

Is that possible?

12:05 p.m.

Deputy Minister, Department of Human Resources and Skills Development

Ian Shugart

The current year operating freeze is 4.1% We've been living under the operating freeze.

12:05 p.m.

Liberal

Geoff Regan Liberal Halifax West, NS

Sorry, the number of reductions of people is what I meant.

12:05 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal John McKay

You heard that, Mr. Shugart? He meant the number of reductions of people.

12:05 p.m.

Liberal

Geoff Regan Liberal Halifax West, NS

We saw 2011-12 but not 2010-11.

12:05 p.m.

Deputy Minister, Department of Human Resources and Skills Development

Ian Shugart

We'll review what I've said and present that in a summary form, just so there's no confusion about what numbers I've been referring to.

12:05 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal John McKay

Thank you.

Mr. Holder.

12:05 p.m.

Conservative

Ed Holder Conservative London West, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'm going to avoid debate insofar as my colleague from the New Democratic Party was talking about the lack of a plan, and yet that's what I thought I heard.

What concerns me were the remarks he made at the very end, which seem to me to challenge the integrity of our witnesses. I know this member to be honourable, and it strikes me that he might want to reflect on that kind of commentary.

12:05 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal John McKay

Mr. Holder, that's not a point of order.

12:05 p.m.

Conservative

Ed Holder Conservative London West, ON

It is because I think we may get to the point with our witnesses that they don't want to come because of the fear that their integrity is going to be challenged. I think that shows disrespect, and our committee can do better than that.

12:05 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal John McKay

That would be under the auspices of a point of debate. It's not a point of order.

On behalf of the committee, I want to thank the witnesses for coming. I appreciate your accommodation with respect to our time constraints.

I'll suspend for a minute or two, while we de-panel and re-panel.

Colleagues, can I call this meeting back to order?

I apologize to all for the time restraints that we're under, but our dilemmas are, if you will, somewhat self-created.

If I could call the other witnesses up, please....

Welcome, Mr. Mallette.

Monsieur Lévesque and Mr. Stewart, welcome.

First of all, on behalf of the committee, may I apologize. We've had some committee business that has occupied some time. Regrettably, we have until one o'clock. We've had to allocate some 10 or 15 minutes for committee business at the end of that time. I apologize for cutting back the time in which you might wish to make a presentation.

Without further ado, may I invite Monsieur Mallette to make his presentation and introduce his colleagues, please.

February 15th, 2011 / 12:10 p.m.

Pierre Mallette National President, Union of Canadian Correctional Officers, Confédération des syndicats nationaux (CSN)

Good afternoon. My name is Pierre Mallette. I am the national president of the Union of Canadian Correctional Officers, which has over 7,000 members across the country.

Our union's role is well-known, but let's keep in mind that it has the safety, training and working conditions of its members at its heart. We thank you for giving us the opportunity to share with you our point of view on the impact that the freeze on budget envelopes has on correctional officers and on the prison system in general.

Frankly, we need to tell you that we have fears and doubts. Can we get away with a freeze under the circumstances? Does the government have enough money to face the challenges that it is imposing on us? The freeze on budget envelopes means that the Correctional Service of Canada will have to make do with the money available to cover salary increases, in particular. The planned salary increase for 2010-2011 is 1.5%. The money available must also be used to provide training and protect the safety of employees, and to handle the renewal of the collective agreement, which expired on May 31, 2010.

Furthermore, Bill C-2 and Bill C-25 impose new challenges because they will mean an additional 4,478 inmates by 2014 and an additional 4,419 positions, most of which will be CX positions, over the next three years. In short, it's a challenge for recruitment, training and the management of inmate programs and, therefore, there are more risks.

What are these risks? First, you have to put yourself in the correctional environment. Every day, we have to face incidents in that environment that are difficult to foresee. We are not safe from inmates who, one day, decide they've had enough and want to break everything.

The new bills that the government wants to adopt, such as Bill C-2 and Bill C-25, will end up increasing the prison population. Those inmates will need to be housed in institutions that will have to make space for them, and we will have a double bunking rate of up to 30%.

Double bunking means increased risks, better control of the prison population and a better assessment of the risks related to the population. On the inside, we have to manage the population. We must find a way to make several types of inmates live together. We have inmates from organized crime, street gangs, motorcycle gangs, Asian gangs and gangs from Russia. When it comes to managing a prison population, the larger the population becomes, the more you need to be equipped for the simple management of the population. Above all, it is important to avoid managing it to the detriment of the inmates, if programs can no longer be provided to help them rehabilitate.

We must never forget that the Correctional Service of Canada has two roles to play. Its primary role is to protect the safety of the public by limiting access and preventing high-risk offenders from escaping from the prisons. The main risk is in managing these populations, but its second mandate is that we must ensure that inmates are returned to the community and see to it that they are no longer a danger to society.

New announcements have been made in the context of Bill C-25. In fact, we hear that there will be new buildings and an increase in the number of correctional officers and employees. We hear that the number of inmates will increase and that we will have more space and more officers. But that doesn't mean that we will have more money for programs to control these populations and to handle uncontrollable day-to-day situations.

We know that Mr. Head came to make a presentation and that he proposed three ways to manage the freeze on envelopes.

The first solution that Mr. Head proposed is this: he believes that better control over work schedules and new deployment standards will help manage the budget allocated for overtime. It's true. We also believe that these two aspects will help to better control the financial aspect of overtime.

But people are being tight-lipped—both in the government announcements about the construction and within the Correctional Service of Canada—about population management and the programs we are going to offer.

It's true that part of the overtime envelope can be managed with schedules and deployment. We can have a better handle on that, but the level of risk is still difficult to calculate.

The warden of a penitentiary receives an overtime envelope that he must distribute over 12 months to ensure that overtime is monitored and that the mandates are fulfilled.

If some inmates decide to stab another inmate and one of them is hospitalized, there aren't necessarily resources set aside for the staffing. This creates a surplus in the budget envelope. If an inmate decides to attack some correctional officers, three correctional officers may be on leave because of an accident on the job. Then there are riots and major incidents. One fine summer evening, the inmates may decide to stay outside for three more hours. This type of incident is difficult to control and difficult to foresee. This is why we believe that the overtime budget envelope must be planned and better invested. It's difficult to say that we will be able to monitor the overtime envelope 100%. We can't claim that.

As you know, there has been a lot of talk about being "tough on crime". We feel that it is important to understand that there are two ways to be "tough on crime".

Of course, you have to be able to manage and strengthen legislation. But all of that does not simply mean catching a criminal, throwing him in prison, closing the door and forgetting about him for four or five years without giving him a chance to take any programs. This is what we're concerned about right now.

Bill C-10, which was passed in 2009, looked at the freeze on salary increases. A salary increase of 1.5% was approved. In addition, during bargaining talks, the government decided not to give money to the Treasury Board for bargaining. Instead, it was the department that would cover the increases.

The union and the correctional officers need to be able to sit down with the employer and say that it is now time to negotiate the salary increases. In its budget, it must find money to cover the salary increases. Is there a risk that the overtime envelope for being "tough on crime" and bargaining might mix? Yes. I would not want to be in the position of having to dump a working condition for a salary increase. It's unacceptable.

The purpose of our presentation today was to share our concerns with you. Also, we recently learned that there is a discrepancy of $4 billion. We are going to ask questions of the right people and get them to explain to us where this problem came from. Yes, we have concerns about how to monitor and manage our work environment.

Thank you.

12:20 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal John McKay

Merci, monsieur Mallette.

Colleagues, we have 25 minutes and four parties. My suggestion would be to have five-minute rounds. I have had so much experience with this committee that I know five minutes seem to go to six and a half minutes.

Mr. Regan, for five minutes, please.

12:20 p.m.

Liberal

Geoff Regan Liberal Halifax West, NS

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Mallette, thank you very much for being here with your colleagues.

Last week, in response to a question from my colleague, Siobhan Coady, Commissioner Head said that he had asked that all the bills be considered. You mentioned two of them, but there are a number of others. Mr. Head at least acknowledged that he had concerns about the challenge it all represents.

What are your comments on that?

12:20 p.m.

National President, Union of Canadian Correctional Officers, Confédération des syndicats nationaux (CSN)

Pierre Mallette

We have eight labour-management meetings a year where we can share our doubts and fears with Mr. Head.

I believe that the challenge for us, as a union and as correctional officers, is that we need to be able to be heard when we talk about our working conditions. It's a difficult environment where incidents are not always foreseeable. It is important to always keep in mind that all the legislation that's adopted, all the regulations that are changed to improve the situation and be more "tough on crime" will also have an impact on the inmates.

The programs that existed previously gave inmates a purpose for going through the program. They could see a glimmer of hope when they finished it. Where will the inmate find that hope now? Is the inmate going to tell us that, whether he takes part in the program or not, we will make him do 10 years? Will pressure mount on us, the correctional officers? This is what the freeze on budget envelopes does not predict.

Money is being planned for new buildings, new staff, but where is the money to plan for the impact of new legislation on our clientele, who are inmates?

12:20 p.m.

Liberal

Geoff Regan Liberal Halifax West, NS

It's worrying that the government refuses to give us estimates on the costs and on the increase in the number of prisoners for each bill.

I want to go back to the issue of double bunking.

What will the real impact on the ground be for your people?

12:20 p.m.

National President, Union of Canadian Correctional Officers, Confédération des syndicats nationaux (CSN)

Pierre Mallette

First, we must always remember that somewhere a correctional officer is opening a cell door. In other words, when the officer does the rounds in the range, there are two inmates in the cell. There are inmates under maximum, medium and minimum security. So the risk can be higher.

Furthermore, there is also a risk for the inmate. Double bunking means that there are two inmates in a cell. That means that we need to determine whether the two inmates can live together. Last year, there were fairly appalling situations where the two inmates in the same cell assaulted each other. One morning, for example, one of the inmates got up and said, as if it were nothing, that he had stabbed the other inmate. The officers discovered it all when they did their rounds. It doesn't make sense.

Population management assessment is important. The decision about sharing the same cell has an effect on us. It's rampant in some institutions that have to manage eight different populations, eight categories of inmates who cannot be in contact with each other. For example, if an inmate from one end of the penitentiary needs to go to the infirmary, he must not have contact with the other inmates. All the other inmates are isolated in the cellblocks so that the inmate concerned can go to the hospital.

All these challenges related to population management and double bunking have an impact on the staff. They also have an effect on our working conditions. You have a range with 60 to 70 inmates to manage, but only three on the floor to do it.

So there's an impact on us and an impact on the quality of what the inmate can get. I'm not talking about the inmate's quality of life because it's fairly difficult in prison. The impact is felt on the quality of the programs and on reintegration.

12:25 p.m.

Liberal

Geoff Regan Liberal Halifax West, NS

Since there will be 5,000 new employees, or 4,000 additional positions, but also 1,000 employees to replace those who are leaving, what training problems do you see? Do you think that there could be a problem related to the training process?

12:25 p.m.

National President, Union of Canadian Correctional Officers, Confédération des syndicats nationaux (CSN)

Pierre Mallette

We are working with the Correctional Service of Canada on recruitment. We have had a major recruitment problem in recent years because it was poorly defined.

There is an aspect that needs to be protected. When we open the staffing process for correctional officers to the public, we need to make sure that we will not aid in the infiltration of gangs or people without sufficient security clearance or reliability to be in an institution. In a meeting with CSC, we said that there still needs to be criteria.

Personally, when I was hired 25 years ago, my fingerprints were taken. My file and my past were checked, but that costs a lot. But what is the cost when we have hired someone and need to let them go right away? We often tell the employer that the people they hire subsequently become our members.

12:25 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal John McKay

Thank you, Mr. Regan.

Ms. Bourgeois, you have five minutes.