Government Operations Committee on March 22nd, 2011

[Maria Barrados]

Yes. The commission proposed that it should be responsible for all those public appointments.

I would ask Mr. Arseneault to explain the rationale behind that recommendation.

[Diane Bourgeois, Bloc, Terrebonne—Blainville, QC]

Surely, Mr. Arseneault, you must have examples to show why the recommendation was made in the first place?

[Gaston Arseneault, Senior General Counsel and Vice-President, Legal Affairs Branch, Public Service Commission of Canada]

Some of those 400 positions are associate deputy minister positions. And the act provides for the appointment of associate deputy ministers. But because a department has grown over the years or because there is no provision in the act, there is a need for something like this.

Traditionally, associate deputy ministers, which are very high-level positions, are appointed by the Governor in Council. The practice was to ask the Public Service Commission for a general exclusion from its authority in order to be able to appoint an associate deputy minister, because there was a need to do so.

With the passage of the Federal Accountability Act, the commission would occasionally receive such requests for the purpose of special appointments. It would happen very late, on a Thursday, for example, so it could be done as soon as possible. And the commission was not very comfortable with those requests. So there was a desire to give the Governor in Council the ability to appoint these individuals in special circumstances and when it was reasonable to do so. That is what the Federal Accountability Act did. For instance, that was the case for an advisor to a deputy minister or equivalent position where that practice was traditionally used.

In the case of a special advisor to a minister, we established the clause to address a situation that arises from time to time where a minister needs a special advisor. However, the wording of the provision could be very open to interpretation. What is a special advisor exactly?

[Diane Bourgeois, Bloc, Terrebonne—Blainville, QC]

It could be someone like the fellow we read about in the papers last week. His girlfriend was able to take advantage of government contracts.

I am a visual person. I need concrete examples.

If I understand correctly, your powers are limited in this area.

I am going to give my last 30 seconds to my colleague.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Chris Warkentin]

Your time is finished, so we can go to Mr. Gourde for five minutes.

[Jacques Gourde, Conservative, Lotbinière—Chutes-de-la-Chaudière, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

And thank you to the witnesses for being here today, especially Maria Barrados. We have had the opportunity to hear from you on a number of occasions now.

There is something that still concerns me, and that is where do young people, those who are new to the public service, fit in? We are all very familiar with the challenge of renewing the public service in the years ahead.

Earlier, you mentioned the possibility of a competition to bring university students into the public service. Do you partner with universities to help students learn the skills they need to join the public service immediately, based on the skills required for public service positions? Surely, every department must have a need for specific skill sets in a variety of positions where existing public servants will eventually have to be replaced.

[Maria Barrados]

Not exactly. We do have a lot of discussions with universities. We talk to them about the skills we are looking for, especially in the field of public administration, but we also have some discussions on the use of our language tests.

One of our recommendations is intended to give the Public Service Commission more authority so that we can offer our services for a fee to other institutions such as universities and provinces.

I always give the example of our language tests. I have received numerous requests where people want to use our language tests because it gives students a chance to reach the level of bilingualism required to become a member of the public service. As it stands now, we do not have the flexibility to offer that service.

[Jacques Gourde, Conservative, Lotbinière—Chutes-de-la-Chaudière, QC]

Is the percentage of bilingual positions being filled by new public servants going up? As we know, in some regions, all the positions are bilingual. In other regions, unilingual positions are tolerated. Has the overall percentage been going up over the years?

[Maria Barrados]

I will direct that question to my official languages champion. I have the sense it has not changed all that much.

[Donald Lemaire, Senior Vice-President, Policy Branch, Public Service Commission of Canada]

No. The proportions are more or less the same. I believe 67% or 70% of them are unilingual English positions. The rest are bilingual, primarily in the national capital region.

[Jacques Gourde, Conservative, Lotbinière—Chutes-de-la-Chaudière, QC]

Most public service positions are located in the national capital region. What percentage of positions are located in the national capital region as compared with the rest of the country?

[Donald Lemaire]

I don't know those figures off the top of my head, but it is much higher in the national capital region.

But everyone in a management position has to be bilingual. And that is why it is so crucial for universities to let students know that if they aspire to be managers in the public service, they must endeavour to become bilingual as soon as possible so they can be eligible for those positions.

[Jacques Gourde, Conservative, Lotbinière—Chutes-de-la-Chaudière, QC]

Internally, departments also offer training courses to those wanting to become bilingual.

[Donald Lemaire]

Yes.

[Maria Barrados]

Especially in the case of a non-imperative position. If an individual wins a competition for a non-imperative position, that person is required to become bilingual, and the employer is required to provide the necessary training.

[Jacques Gourde, Conservative, Lotbinière—Chutes-de-la-Chaudière, QC]

It says in your report that the percentage of new recruits with no prior experience has gone from 15% to 37%.

Is that due to the fact they are leaving university more prepared, or is it the result of a combination of circumstances where sheer volume is forcing people to hire whoever is available?

[Maria Barrados]

I would say the increase has more to do with the deputy minister's decision to take a more direct approach and to staff positions through the post-secondary recruitment program. It allows federal organizations to hire university graduates directly, without having to go through temporary, short-term or other types of employment.

[Jacques Gourde, Conservative, Lotbinière—Chutes-de-la-Chaudière, QC]

Are there still positions requiring college level? Not all positions require a university degree. If you need administrative assistants, surely there are college-level programs that prepare students for that kind of work.

[Maria Barrados]

Exactly, absolutely.

[Jacques Gourde, Conservative, Lotbinière—Chutes-de-la-Chaudière, QC]

Thank you very much.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Chris Warkentin]

Thank you, Mr. Gourde.

We're going to turn to Ms. Coady for five minutes.

[Siobhan Coady, Liberal, St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL]

Thank you very much.

I want to go back to this politicization of the public service. I note in your report that you talk about it being a growing phenomenon, not just in Canada but around the world.

I know that there have been concerns expressed, for example, about some of the appointments made in ACOA in the Atlantic region. A number of people have been hired who have strong political ties to the Conservative Party, for example. In the Enterprise Cape Breton Corporation there are several defeated Conservative candidates. There have been a number of political organizers who have been hired in these positions. For some of these positions, it's been said that they have been advertised, and some of them don't fit the criteria for them.

In that whole realm of concern about the politicization of the public service, how do you overcome this? How do you address, in some of these agencies, some of those concerns that have arisen around politicization?

[Maria Barrados]

There are two parts to your question.

In the case of ACOA, we have received specific complaints from a member of Parliament. When I receive specific complaints, what I do is send them to my investigative unit. This is a unit that does investigations, using a quasi-judicial type of process, mostly by lawyers who are legally trained. I send it to them, and they examine the complaint and look to see whether there is enough there for them to launch a full investigation. In the case of the complaints I got on ACOA, they have, in fact, launched a full investigation.

That is one of the things we do. If we get a specific complaint, we do that, and we do that inquiry under the act.

In the case of the Enterprise Cape Breton Corporation, however, that is not at all within the jurisdiction of the Public Service Commission. That is a crown corporation, and there is no way I can do anything about that complaint. That's one I don't have the mandate to do anything about.

[Siobhan Coady, Liberal, St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL]

By way of clarification, if you have a separate crown corporation, you have no way of reaching in to make sure that there is no politicization.

[Maria Barrados]

No.