Government Operations Committee on Dec. 6th, 2012

[Pierre-Marc Mongeau]

Mr. Chair, I would like to remind you that we take health and safety very seriously and that we put in place every measure necessary in that respect.

Joanne may talk about how we manage the asbestos and all the dangerous products.

[Joanne Monette]

We actually have asbestos management plans for all of our buildings. You are correct, sir, that all our buildings have asbestos in them, except for three buildings. Currently, we have assessed them. We go in every year to ensure that the asbestos is still encapsulated. When we do minor repair projects, replacing a duplex outlet, for example, and there's asbestos there and there is a chance that it's not encapsulated, we remove the asbestos before we do it. We check our plans every single year.

We have a plan, as I mentioned, for every one of our buildings, and we ensure that the asbestos is encapsulated. Right now, in the majority of the buildings, it is in the mechanical rooms and around the piping. Some is in the floor, but unless you take a drill and hammer up the floor, it's not a hazard to anybody.

[Jean-François Larose, NDP, Repentigny, QC]

Centre Block has been evaluated as having asbestos. Do you have an idea of what the quantity is and how much needs to be taken out?

[Joanne Monette]

I don't have that information with me, but we do have a plan that we could provide to the committee, if you're interested.

[Jean-François Larose, NDP, Repentigny, QC]

Could you say it would be a....

There are imponderables when it comes to costs. Do you think that's controllable? Do you know exactly how much asbestos is in Centre Block? Do you think there will be some surprises? We're dealing with unexpected situations with the old buildings because of their age.

[Pierre-Marc Mongeau]

Mr. Chair, we have an asbestos management plan that indicates where the asbestos is and what steps to take to restore the situation. We set out all those steps in the methodology that we use in our building management plan.

Joanne, maybe you could tell us if you have these numbers, or the way you manage that.

With respect to asbestos and hazardous materials, regular analyses are done. That way, we ensure that everything is under control. It's important for us.

[Jean-François Larose, NDP, Repentigny, QC]

Could we get the plan?

Could we have that?

[The Chair, NDP, Pat Martin]

Certainly.

[Pierre-Marc Mongeau]

We can send you those documents.

[Jean-François Larose, NDP, Repentigny, QC]

Very good. Thank you.

[The Chair, NDP, Pat Martin]

Very good. Thank you.

Just to add one point along the same line of questioning, one of the unions involved in the renovation came to me recently and said that the asbestos removal workers were not certified to remove asbestos. I went to the minister about that. She investigated and found that, indeed, the general contractor had hired a subcontractor who was employing workers not certified to remove asbestos. That has been corrected, we understand.

Do you have something to add to that, sir?

[Pierre-Marc Mongeau]

Thank you for telling us about this situation. We have made some checks and it turns out that the main reason the general contractor made that mistake is this: the employees who work in Ontario must have their Ontario certification. But the contractor had hired workers from Quebec, who had Quebec certification, which is not recognized in Ontario. There were three cases of this, but the situation has been rectified since then. In this case, it was more the interprovincial recognition of certifications than lack of skill that was at play.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, NDP, Pat Martin]

I could say more about that, but it's not my place.

Mike Wallace, it’s your turn.

[Mike Wallace, Conservative, Burlington, ON]

I think that's a great example of interprovincial barriers to mobility of labour, which we need to get rid of, but that's a different topic for a different committee.

I want to agree with my NDP friends across the way. Linda Duncan said she doesn't think it's an outrage that we are renovating historic buildings. She thinks Canadians would appreciate that, and I absolutely agree with her. Mr. Martin said he doesn't think West Block is fit for habitation, and I think he is probably right.

I'm glad we're doing this work. I appreciate the effort. Based on what I've heard today, it sounds like we have a plan and that the plan is on budget and is working. There has been some discussion, some concern, about decision-making, but it sounds to me like we are moving forward, based on what's happening on the Hill and just off the Hill across the street on Wellington. There's lots of activity, so we're moving forward.

The one question the chair asked, I don't think you got a chance to answer. It's about the shape of the roof, which is likely a heritage issue. You cannot see it from the road. This is to preserve the heritage aspect of the building. Is that not correct?

[Pierre-Marc Mongeau]

Mr. Chair, I will ask my colleague Ezio to answer the question. He is an expert on this and worked on implementing this project.

[Ezio DiMillo]

That's quite right. We did not want to have the roof over-exposed. We wanted to make sure the design was compatible, subordinate, and distinguishable. In fact, the National Capital Commission has three sight cones that mandate the height of new construction in the area of the Parliament Buildings, and we needed to respect those sight cones, so this did restrict the elevation of that roof.

We work with the FHBRO, the Federal Heritage Buildings Review Office, and the National Capital Commission. We have conducted a number of design review committees. We work with the parliamentary partners as well in completing these designs and moving forward with them. The roof has been modelled by experts in Guelph, Ontario. There was a question asked earlier about snow. A scale model of this structure has been modelled in Guelph, Ontario, for snow loading, wind loading, and so on. Very detailed engineering has been done on the structure, and the glass roof has been designed to easily handle snow loads. It has been designed so that it is easily maintained as well.

About the height of the roof, you're quite right. We are restricted, and rightfully so, I believe, because we want to be compatible, subordinate, and distinguishable. These are basic design elements that we want to respect when we're adding a construction to a very important heritage building such as this.

[Mike Wallace, Conservative, Burlington, ON]

I think these are the most important heritage buildings in Canada. When people from my riding of Burlington who haven't been here before visit here, they are amazed at the buildings. Many people think they're older than they actually are. When I was on council, built heritage was one of the committees I was on, and we made sure to save as much built heritage as we could in Burlington. We don't have a lot of it in this country. We're a new country, and we need to preserve what we have.

My office is in East Block. Is it in the next tranche of things to do? Could you give me a heads-up about what might be happening to East Block?

[Pierre-Marc Mongeau]

The actual plan now is that we have vacated the West Block.

Our objective is also to empty out East Block eventually and transfer its occupants to the buildings we are currently renovating. While we are renovating Centre Block, the occupants of each side of the building will be transferred to the two new buildings that will have been renovated. Once Centre Block has been renovated, we will bring back everyone who was temporarily housed in East Block and West Block. It will be a few years before we empty East Block. Until then, you can leave your papers on your desk.

[Mike Wallace, Conservative, Burlington, ON]

I'm happy with that.

Thank you.

[The Chair, NDP, Pat Martin]

You're right on five minutes. That's great. Thank you, Mike.

Linda Duncan, for the NDP.

[Linda Duncan, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

I noticed in your brief you mention that an audit was done in September. Is that the audit that was commissioned in August? If so, could you advise us on the details? If it isn't, could you tell us what's the state of the audit that was commissioned in August of this year? What are the terms of reference? Could we please receive those? If the audit has been completed, could we please be provided with a copy?

In keeping with that, I'm going to throw out a few questions for you.

The minister has announced new guidelines for the scrutiny of subcontractors and contractors. Are the newly expanded anti-corruption guidelines and rules being applied to the current contractors and subcontractors, and have any exemptions been granted under the precinct contracts?

[Pierre-Marc Mongeau]

With respect to audits, our team was given two internal audit mandates. The first mandate was the one I spoke about in the presentation. The mandate was to audit our project management to see if there were things we could improve when it comes to following up on our own processes. We got the results a short while ago, and we will make sure we put it on the website. However, if the committee wishes, we can send you the terms of the contract, the contract and the results.

The second request has to do with the audit of payments. We haven't started that yet, but we will shortly. In the contract concluded with the manager responsible for construction, one clause indicates that PWGSC reserves the right to audit contracts, payments, and so on. We simply do due diligence, as set out in the contract. This firm will audit the accounts and verify whether we have paid as required. That's part of our internal management. We can submit the terms for this file as well, but we don't yet have the results because it will be starting shortly.

The new integrity framework is relatively new. Offhand, this framework does not cover companies that are already working. Companies that have already signed contracts do not come under this new framework because we must respect the contracts that people already have. I must tell you that the major contracts relating to work on Parliament Hill have been signed with companies like PCL. These companies are not currently accused of anything.

[Linda Duncan, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

My understanding is that in 2005, and I believe it was when the Conservatives took over government, there was a controversy about a contractor and that contract was ended. I'm puzzled. Are you now saying the government will not end any contracts even if any kind of corruption is found?

[Pierre-Marc Mongeau]

You'll recall that I came and spoke about this contract two years ago. The reason why the contract was terminated at the time was simple. The general contractor who won the invitation to tender was unable to meet the objectives of the contract quickly enough. Therefore, PWGSC withdrew the contract because the contractor was not meeting his obligations. We contacted the surety company, which completed the work.

It was mainly a matter of non-compliance. The contractor's work was unsatisfactory. That's why we terminated the contract at the time.

[Linda Duncan, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

This is a long-term plan and a lot of renovations are going on, such as at Promenade and Wellington buildings in the meantime as we clear everybody out of other buildings. Does your long-term plan include cost recovery? Are you going to return any of this space? We're only getting 30 more MPs. Are you going to return some of this space to private enterprise to recover some of the costs of all these renovations? Is that in your plan?