Evidence of meeting #88 for Government Operations and Estimates in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was process.
A recording is available from Parliament.
11:55 a.m.
Associate Assistant Deputy Minister, Acquisitions Branch, Department of Public Works and Government Services
No, it's for the real estate fees, for the lawyers to sell the house, for your first and last months' rent when you're leaving a rental—those kinds of things.
11:55 a.m.
NDP
The Chair NDP Pat Martin
How much is it per client, the $19,500? What does that pay per head? It seems to me it's a whole whack of money.
It's the most controversial procurement in government history, the longest standing dispute in history. Why don't we just do that in-house? By my figures, you could hire 500 personnel at $100,000 a year each for the same price as you're paying for that contract, and those 500 personnel could advise the people being moved as to what's a good neighbourhood and help them with advice on their moving. Somebody still has to carry the damn furniture around—that's the expensive part of any move.
11:55 a.m.
Associate Assistant Deputy Minister, Acquisitions Branch, Department of Public Works and Government Services
We know.
11:55 a.m.
NDP
The Chair NDP Pat Martin
Why don't we do it in-house? From a broad policy point of view, has anybody ever considered forgetting all this agony over this particular procurement contract? Why don't we hire some civil servants to do it cheaply and efficiently and competently, without collusion or corruption, or the allegations associated with this contract?
11:55 a.m.
Associate Assistant Deputy Minister, Acquisitions Branch, Department of Public Works and Government Services
Not to comment on it in particular, we are simply fulfilling a request we receive from our client departments who have chosen to do it this way and have asked us to procure these services. The decision was taken back in the late 1990s to move to an outsource service in this area, and that's fundamentally where we are right now.
11:55 a.m.
NDP
11:55 a.m.
NDP
Linda Duncan NDP Edmonton Strathcona, AB
Thanks, Mr. Chair. That's a good question. It saves me asking it.
I'll not get into the case, but I am going to relay a finding of the court. My question follows after that. The court felt it was imperative that a thorough investigation be carried out on how far up the bureaucratic chain the knowledge of this activity went, that it was particularly important to ensure the integrity of the Auditor General. It also found some of the testimony of Public Works officials to be, in their quotes, “less than truthful”.
My question to you is this. This matter is under appeal. Potentially, it could be under appeal again if the government is not satisfied with the ruling of the appellate division. Are you going to move expeditiously on the recommendation of the court, or is that going to be awaiting all of these appeals, which may be completed well after the procurement bidding process occurs for the next round for this particular activity?
11:55 a.m.
Associate Assistant Deputy Minister, Acquisitions Branch, Department of Public Works and Government Services
In terms of our investigation, subsequent to the Auditor General's report in 2006, the department carried out an internal investigation on the observations of the Auditor General. At that point these matters were addressed, and that's about it.
11:55 a.m.
NDP
Linda Duncan NDP Edmonton Strathcona, AB
So your answer is no further investigations into the conduct of the department as a result of the determination of the court.
11:55 a.m.
Associate Assistant Deputy Minister, Acquisitions Branch, Department of Public Works and Government Services
Once we have the final decision of the courts, I presume we'll be taking those actions as well.
11:55 a.m.
NDP
Linda Duncan NDP Edmonton Strathcona, AB
So no direction from the deputy minister, who I note is actually the person responsible for the policy on fairness monitoring and is not here.
Are you the deputy minister responsible for oversight?
11:55 a.m.
Associate Assistant Deputy Minister, Acquisitions Branch, Department of Public Works and Government Services
I'm the assistant deputy minister of acquisitions.
11:55 a.m.
NDP
Linda Duncan NDP Edmonton Strathcona, AB
Have either of those officials directed that you take a closer look at whether or not fairness is occurring?
11:55 a.m.
Associate Assistant Deputy Minister, Acquisitions Branch, Department of Public Works and Government Services
Yes. We have been directed under our procurement reform initiative, which started back in 2009-10, to change how we do procurement. That is what we have been putting in place. It's not only for this particular procurement, but for all procurements, so that we do the proper industry engagement, so that we have openness and transparency, and so that we have the third-party reviews at appropriate places in the procurement, as well as open governance.
11:55 a.m.
NDP
Denis Blanchette NDP Louis-Hébert, QC
I want to thank our guests. It is always nice to have an opportunity to talk to them.
I want to discuss performance measurement mechanisms. Your department manages the contract, but it does not actually use it. So the problem always consists in trying to determine whether the contract is effective.
Correct me if I am wrong, but my understanding is that it has been fairly difficult to accurately assess the services provided by departments. I want to know what tools you mean to use to clearly establish whether taxpayers are getting value for their money in different departments.
Noon
Senior Director, Professional Services Procurement Directorate, Department of Public Works and Government Services
Thank you.
If I remember correctly, the 2009 contract sets out 67 performance measurements used to evaluate the services provided by the contracting party. Those performance measurements are discussed regularly—on a quarterly basis, I think. The goal is to ensure that the contracting party is meeting the program's objectives.
Similar measures will be included in the next procurement process.
Noon
NDP
Noon
Senior Director, Professional Services Procurement Directorate, Department of Public Works and Government Services
They are both quantitative and qualitative, and there are 67 of them.
Noon
NDP
Noon
Senior Director, Professional Services Procurement Directorate, Department of Public Works and Government Services
So far, the contracting party has been meeting the contract requirements.
Noon
NDP
Denis Blanchette NDP Louis-Hébert, QC
Do you plan to change those measures significantly for the purposes of the next competition?
Noon
Senior Director, Professional Services Procurement Directorate, Department of Public Works and Government Services
As for the engagement process, we plan to meet with industry representatives to learn about best practices in performance measurement. That is one of the elements. That could change a lot or a little. It will all depend on our interaction with industry.
We definitely want to make sure that those are the best practices in workforce adjustment or relocation.
Noon
NDP
Denis Blanchette NDP Louis-Hébert, QC
Very well.
Could you tell me a bit more about your relationships with various client departments? I understand that you want to speak to industry representatives. However, first and foremost, you have relationships with the departments on whose behalf you sign contracts.
What I basically want to know is whether any information that would help you better evaluate the contact is ever lost in the relationship between you and your client departments.
Noon
Senior Director, Professional Services Procurement Directorate, Department of Public Works and Government Services
For instance, in the case of the new contract, we have an interdepartmental committee in charge of identifying the needs. We will use the knowledge acquired through the management of the current contract to establish those performance measurements. So in addition to consulting industry representatives, we will also use the lessons learned from the management of the contract in place since 2009 and any previous contracts.