Government Operations Committee on March 13th, 2024

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

In 2019, preCOVID, I believe in reference to a chatbot product that Botler had developed, there was some communication between you and Mr. MacDonald.

I'll go back to your previous comments from the last round, when you said that the reason the government might direct contractors to work through your standing contract with the government is that it's faster and more efficient than going through a procurement process, which could take several months. Is that a fair characterization?

I see you sort of nodding. Is that fair, Mr. Firth?

[Kristian Firth]

Yes—not just mine but any existing contract.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Right. Here's what you say Mr. MacDonald communicated to you on November 18, 2019: “Look, Kristian, I can't solicit this as a government department, and I'll, you know, I think there's an opportunity for you”, meaning GC Strategies, “to partner with these guys”, meaning Botler, “and knowing what you can do here in town, I think you can turn this into an enterprise product.

What did Mr. MacDonald mean by “I can't solicit this as a government department”? It sounds like it doesn't have to do with efficiency. It sounds like it has to do with working around some kind of rules that are in place to prevent him from going out there and hand-picking contractors.

[Kristian Firth]

The truth is that I can't comment on what Mr. MacDonald was writing or why he was writing those things. I'm sorry. At that point, I was not writing on behalf of Mr. MacDonald, so I can't attest to what he meant by that.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

I guess what it looks like to someone on the outside is that Mr. MacDonald was doing your bidding and trying to set you up to turn this into an enterprise product. I assume it was because you would have been able to charge a substantial commission if the product that Botler developed had become an enterprise product.

Do you agree that this is a wholly inappropriate role for someone high up in the CBSA to be playing?

[Kristian Firth]

Again, I can't speculate on what the intentions were with that email. Everybody can interpret it how they want to. I just can't speculate on and I don't really know the intent behind that email.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

I find that difficult to believe, Mr. Firth.

[Kristian Firth]

It's the truth. I was not in Mr. MacDonald's brain when he was writing that. I can't make assumptions on what the intentions were for that email.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

That is our time.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

I'll leave it at that.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Thanks, Mr. Bachrach.

Mr. Deltell, please go ahead for five minutes.

[Gérard Deltell, Conservative, Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

We are here today to get to the bottom of what is probably the biggest financial scandal in Canadian government history. A contract for work that was supposed to cost just $80,000 led to a spending spree of nearly $60 million—750 times over-budget. That is unacceptable. Canadians need answers for this shameful financial fiasco that they are on the hook for and will be for a long time to come.

As we all know, the GC Strategies representative had to be threatened with arrest in order to come before the committee today. A person refuses to appear when they don't have a clear conscience. Sorry, but the representative has to appear before the committee. In fact, this is not Mr. Firth's first time before the committee. He has been here twice before.

First of all, Mr. Firth, did you lie during your previous appearances before the committee? Yes or no?

[Kristian Firth]

I'm sorry. Can you repeat the question, please? I had some feedback on my microphone.

[Gérard Deltell, Conservative, Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC]

Did you lie during your previous appearances before the committee, yes or no?

[Kristian Firth]

I made a mistake with a cottage and a chalet the last time I was here.

[Gérard Deltell, Conservative, Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC]

I see.

[Kristian Firth]

Again, it's not a lie. The actual irony is that it was referred to as a cabin.

[Gérard Deltell, Conservative, Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC]

What about the hospitality provided and the whiskey tasting? Was that information correct?

[Kristian Firth]

Yes. There's been previous testimony about when there was a whisky tasting. I think it was mentioned that it was put out to government officials and it was put out to contractors. Those government officials have since said they got permission from their superiors and paid their way.

[Gérard Deltell, Conservative, Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC]

Let's turn to the contract as awarded and executed.

When did you realize that $80,000 wasn't enough and that the price tag was really going up? When it hit one million, two million or three million dollars? When did you realize that spending was spiralling and the project was over-budget?

[Kristian Firth]

Again, that's not my determination. The first contract award was for $2.35 million. That one was the first COVID contract.

Subsequently, there were amendments that were made. You have to bear in mind, and I think testimony mentioned, that national security exemptions really last for only three months, so there had to be a decision made by the government to either put a larger number and keep doing amendments or keep going back and retendering and redoing it. It isn't a fast process—we know that—to retender and restructure a contract every three months.

My understanding was that it jumped. The one contract we're talking about went from $2.35 million to $13.9 million, but my understanding was that every time there was an amendment, it was published on Buyandsell, which 635 other companies could challenge. It was also put in front of the House, and MPs voted in the House, every single time there was an amendment.

It wasn't like only I knew. Everybody knew the prices were rising.

[Gérard Deltell, Conservative, Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC]

Who was monitoring the quality of your work? The cost can't go from $80,000 to $60 million like that without someone sounding the alarm.

[Kristian Firth]

We had four or five government officials who were monitoring the quality of our work. There were other prices associated with just ArriveCAN and the application build that we're not privy to. We were not part of the $19.1 million, or the $11 million to $60 million. We were from the $0 to the $11 million, or $19.1 million, depending on which article you want to read.

[Gérard Deltell, Conservative, Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC]

Understandably, measures had to be taken and everyone had to contribute actively in response to COVID‑19. There is a difference, though, between working very actively and billing 750 times more than originally budgeted. Canadians want answers on that.

When did you realize that the project was astronomically over-budget with little to show for it?

[Kristian Firth]

First of all, we submitted over 1,500 invoices monthly. Again, I want to get the illusion everybody's thinking right now.... We were never given a cheque for $20 million on day one. We submitted 1,500 approved invoices per month for the last three years to get to whichever amount you want to listen to: $19.1 million or $11 million.

We were not responsible for any alarm bells. We hit 171 releases of the application on time. Every time the Public Health Agency changed the policy, we would have to amend the application. That, there, in itself—the fact that we were hitting all of our targets—meant that we were doing a good job. We also don't control what the budget is. That's out of our realm.