Evidence of meeting #112 for Government Operations and Estimates in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was cbsa.
A video is available from Parliament.
12:55 p.m.
Conservative
Luc Berthold Conservative Mégantic—L'Érable, QC
You are the chief financial officer of the Canada Border Services Agency.
Is that correct?
12:55 p.m.
Vice-President, Comptrollership Branch, Canada Border Services Agency
I am.
12:55 p.m.
Conservative
Luc Berthold Conservative Mégantic—L'Érable, QC
As such, are you the one who signs contracts and supplier cheques?
12:55 p.m.
Vice-President, Comptrollership Branch, Canada Border Services Agency
No, I do not.
I was not personally responsible for ArriveCAN. However, as an executive of the CBSA, I do have accountability—
12:55 p.m.
Conservative
12:55 p.m.
Vice-President, Comptrollership Branch, Canada Border Services Agency
I was the CFO at that time, and I was an executive of the CBSA. I take responsibility for the failures which have been identified, and I am also responsible for the improvement plan that we are developing to ensure this does not happen again.
12:55 p.m.
Conservative
12:55 p.m.
Liberal
Irek Kusmierczyk Liberal Windsor—Tecumseh, ON
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you, sir, for your testimony.
I wanted to ask you about the improvement plan a bit. You've read the AG's report and you've read the procurement ombudsman's report talking about the deficiencies in management and documentation. I wanted to ask you about some of the steps you've taken.
The CBSA has said that it has struck an executive procurement review committee and also a procurement centre of expertise. Can you please explain the executive procurement review committee, who sits on it and what is its role?
12:55 p.m.
Vice-President, Comptrollership Branch, Canada Border Services Agency
We established the executive procurement review committee, and our first meeting was in October. I chaired the first eight of those meetings, and now the executive vice-president has taken over the chair.
A number of VPs sit on that, but also, Alex's procurement team is on there. The role is to challenge the individuals who are bringing forward task authorizations or contracts that have a technical authority, but also to seek assurance from Alex's team that we are complying with all the rules and regulations and the standard operating procedures. It is a second line of defence and a check to make sure that the issues that were identified in the Auditor General's report and the procurement ombudsman's report do not happen again.
12:55 p.m.
Liberal
Irek Kusmierczyk Liberal Windsor—Tecumseh, ON
There are literally hundreds of thousands of decisions that are made, if not millions, or tens of thousands of contracts that are entered into. How do you decide what to look at? I mean, there is a flood of contracts. How do you decide what you review?
12:55 p.m.
Vice-President, Comptrollership Branch, Canada Border Services Agency
At the moment, we have set it at all contracts and task authorizations above $40,000. This will be evolving over time. We are already seeing a reasonable number coming in. It's not unmanageable. We will hold meetings whenever we need to in order to get through the volume.
12:55 p.m.
Vice-President, Comptrollership Branch, Canada Border Services Agency
Over time, as we start to see a stronger first line of defence, we might be able to raise those limits.
12:55 p.m.
Liberal
Irek Kusmierczyk Liberal Windsor—Tecumseh, ON
Okay. Thank you very much.
You've testified in this committee that there's a process of financial reconciliation that's taking place between the numbers that the AG has put forward and the CBSA's original numbers. When can we expect the timeline to be completed for that process, and can we have the results of that reconciliation review?
12:55 p.m.
Vice-President, Comptrollership Branch, Canada Border Services Agency
It's already been completed, and I'm very happy to provide those results to you, but as I explained earlier, the OAG does identify that they have two numbers in play. They have a number of $53 million around the pandemic health component, and then the number of $59 million includes the customs and declaration.
12:55 p.m.
Liberal
Irek Kusmierczyk Liberal Windsor—Tecumseh, ON
Okay. If you can get that for us in writing, it would be terrific.
The very first question of the committee was asked by my Conservative colleague. He asked the question and didn't provide you with an opportunity to respond.
Can you tell us, in your words, who made the decision to hire GC Strategies? Be as precise as you possibly can as to who was part of that decision-making matrix.
12:55 p.m.
Vice-President, Comptrollership Branch, Canada Border Services Agency
It was decided by the information, science and technology branch. It was within that branch. It was the border technologies innovation directorate.
The executive director at that time was Mr. Utano, the director general was Mr. MacDonald and the vice-president was Mr. Minh Doan. The decision was made within the delegated authorities of the information, science and technology branch.
1 p.m.
Liberal
Irek Kusmierczyk Liberal Windsor—Tecumseh, ON
My colleague singled Minh Doan out, saying that it was Minh Doan's decision, but you're saying that Mr. Utano and assistant deputy minister Cameron MacDonald were also part of that decision. Help me understand that.
1 p.m.
Vice-President, Comptrollership Branch, Canada Border Services Agency
The signature on the documents shows Mr. Utano as the technical authority. The second technical authority—I can't quite get the terminology right—was Mr. MacDonald. They both reported at that time to Mr. Minh Doan.
1 p.m.
Liberal
Irek Kusmierczyk Liberal Windsor—Tecumseh, ON
Okay.
Is it a shared authority? Is that fair to say, or can we say that ultimately the authority was Mr. Minh Doan's?
1 p.m.
Vice-President, Comptrollership Branch, Canada Border Services Agency
I think it was a shared responsibility but, as I've said before, as the vice-president of the branch, Minh Doan was accountable.
1 p.m.
Liberal
Irek Kusmierczyk Liberal Windsor—Tecumseh, ON
Sir, what would you have done differently looking back?
1 p.m.
Vice-President, Comptrollership Branch, Canada Border Services Agency
I think I would have had more oversight. I think that's one of the key issues for us.
We were incredibly busy, though, and we were also understaffed in a number of different areas. I think it's worth just reminding everybody of what the pandemic was like at the start. Immediately, most of our people were sent home. We had to set up home offices, we had to set up new organizational structures and we had to manage the border. A lot of the individual border services officers were really very reluctant to touch paper because the Public Health Agency had said you could catch COVID from touching paper, so the necessity to get a paperless process in place was really important.
1 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley
Thank you, Mr. Moor.
Mr. Seeback, welcome to OGGO. The floor is yours for five minutes, sir.
March 26th, 2024 / 1 p.m.
Conservative
Kyle Seeback Conservative Dufferin—Caledon, ON
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
I see that today we actually have some gentlemen at the committee of whom I'd like to ask some questions about CARM. I see Mr. Leahy there and Mr. Martel, the director of procurement.
The challenge that I have with CARM is the complete lack of consistent statements on when this project began and how much it would cost. To paraphrase Hamlet, it seems like there's something rotten in Denmark.
Mr. Gallivan testified at the trade committee that this was started in 2010 and it was a $370-million project.
In the Canada Gazette, part II, that just came out on March 13, 2024, the government states, “In 2014, the CBSA began the design and implementation of the CARM project”, and that the CARM project is a $526-million contract.