Evidence of meeting #49 for Government Operations and Estimates in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was know.
A video is available from Parliament.
4:55 p.m.
As an Individual
It's a very competitive market. There's the Boston Consulting Group, Bain & Company and Accenture. It's a very competitive market.
4:55 p.m.
NDP
Gord Johns NDP Courtenay—Alberni, BC
Okay, so you mentioned a couple. I was also looking at the numbers. You're right. In 2021, McKinsey got $32 million in contracts. Deloitte got $28 million back in 2011 under the Conservatives. It got $173 million in 2021.
When we talk about the scale of things, this is pretty significant. In fact, PricewaterhouseCoopers got almost $10 million in 2011. It got $21 million in 2013, $34 million in 2014, and $44 million in 2015 under the Conservatives. You see where I'm going. Things started back in the Conservative government with outsourcing, and it got out of control. Now it's at $93 million.
When we look at the overall totals, Deloitte got half a billion dollars in outsourcing in the last decade. PricewaterhouseCoopers got $511 million. Accenture got $211 million. Ernst & Young got $107 million. KPMG got $139 million, and McKinsey got $68 million, not including 2022.
Why do you think this committee is not looking at all those companies? Do you believe that some parties really want to focus on McKinsey and you? Do you think they really want to get to the bottom of the outsourcing issue, and how to stop it? Right now, we're seeing millionaires getting richer on contracts off the public tax dollar when the public needs services the most.
4:55 p.m.
As an Individual
I think your comments speak for themselves. I mean, my last point was, again, putting things in perspective, that I think it's good to look at the impact and what people are doing. I think we should look at the whole broad remit. I don't know why McKinsey...is the only focus. Those numbers also surprise me.
4:55 p.m.
NDP
Gord Johns NDP Courtenay—Alberni, BC
I guess, back to the threats.... Why are these companies getting more money than McKinsey? What are they doing? Who do they know?
4:55 p.m.
NDP
Gord Johns NDP Courtenay—Alberni, BC
Who does Pricewaterhouse know that it can have a 400% increase under the Conservatives and double under the Liberals? Who does it know?
4:55 p.m.
As an Individual
Again, I believe there is a procurement process. I don't think it's about who it knows, but it is quite interesting to see the size of the—
4:55 p.m.
NDP
Gord Johns NDP Courtenay—Alberni, BC
You don't think it's a “Liberal, Tory, same old story” kind of thing, like they're just there to help their friends and undermine the public service.
4:55 p.m.
NDP
Gord Johns NDP Courtenay—Alberni, BC
Well, I do.
I'm going to move a motion at this committee later on to ensure that we expand the scope of this study, because I'm not here to play politics and pay one company over another. We need to look at the whole scope of this thing, and we need answers. We need all these companies before this committee, because they need to explain how they're getting these contracts.
I guess, you know, adding to that.... I mean, you know, you talked about giving back to Canada, and I appreciate your comments on that. What makes you the person the Prime Minister of Canada has to go to for free advice given out of the goodness of your heart?
5 p.m.
As an Individual
You know, you should ask him, because I've been asked by other countries, I'll just say. This is why, again, I felt committed. I've worked with President Obama. I've worked in Colombia; I've worked in the U.K.; I've worked in Singapore; I've worked in South Korea—for leaders. They ask.... They just want to know what's happening in the world, how things are changing. I've never been asked in Canada, except for when Jim Flaherty asked me, and it was to understand how the world...what was going on. He wasn't asking, “Tell me what we should do.” It was just, “Give me ideas.” By the way, there were often radically different views in the room.
It was more in that spirit. It's something that I'd been used to doing, and as a Canadian, I wanted to give something back. That's why.
5 p.m.
NDP
Gord Johns NDP Courtenay—Alberni, BC
I appreciate your work on the Michaels. You talked about back-channelling. I think we're all appreciative to see them home. We're grateful.
You talk about back-channelling routes. Can you explain about domestic back-channelling?
5 p.m.
NDP
Gord Johns NDP Courtenay—Alberni, BC
Well, I think that, you know.... How is it that McKinsey can go from $1.7 million in 2016 to $32 million, literally skyrocketing year after year? What is McKinsey doing? Who does McKinsey know—
5 p.m.
NDP
5 p.m.
As an Individual
Just like your SWOT analysis, you should also look at what's happening in the market. You can see from the numbers you just gave that there are even more mammoth increases for other firms, so—
5 p.m.
NDP
Gord Johns NDP Courtenay—Alberni, BC
I think it's less the market and more about who their friends are and what their priorities are. Putting private sector over public sector is what's going on under both these governments.
5 p.m.
NDP
Gord Johns NDP Courtenay—Alberni, BC
That's a fact. They're prioritizing the private sector over the public sector; that's what both the Liberals and the Tories are doing.
5 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley
I'm afraid that's time, gentlemen.
Mrs. Kusie, you have six minutes, please.
5 p.m.
Conservative
Stephanie Kusie Conservative Calgary Midnapore, AB
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Mr. Barton, going back to your claim that you don't have a close relationship with the Prime Minister, I have another quote here, and the quote is:
So, I have known him for a long time. The Prime Minister knows him well, as well, and one of the things that is really important in this complicated job is to have someone doing it who can pick up the phone at any time and speak directly to the Prime Minister, speak directly to me, someone who has that personal connection and a personal connection built up over time. Dominic is a person who has that level of trust, first and foremost, with the Prime Minister and also with me.
She also said this:
I think one of the reasons David was able to be so effective is he was in such close and direct contact with the Prime Minister and with me. Dominic will enjoy the same direct access.
That was Deputy Prime Minister and Minister of Finance Chrystia Freeland talking about you, your relationship with her and your relationship with the Prime Minister. Mr. Barton, would you consider yourself a friend of former finance minister Bill Morneau?
5 p.m.
As an Individual
I'd like to....
Mr. Chair, can I respond, at least, to the first comment, or is it just going to be a speech?