Government Operations Committee on Feb. 15th, 2023

[Jean-Denis Garon, Bloc, Mirabel, QC]

I've been told to keep it brief, Minister.

You know as well as I that there isn't just economic immigration, and that Quebec does not set the number of immigrants in all streams.

So I'll repeat myself.

When you increased the targets in the streams of interest to you, why didn't you feel it necessary to consider the impact those targets would have on French in Quebec?

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Minister, I'm sorry. I'm going to interrupt. Perhaps we're going to have to get to your answer when Mr. Garon has his last round. I'm afraid you're past time.

Ms. Kwan, you have two and a half minutes, please.

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

IRCC has 327 IT employees. That's fewer than half of what Correctional Service Canada has and about half as many as CBSA. Between January 2018 and September 2022, IRCC used 270 IT contracts but only hired 23 permanent positions. If IRCC needs IT for this transformation that the minister's talking about, why isn't IRCC hiring public servants to do this work instead of contracting it out?

How many staff, permanent positions, could the department get with $24.8 million?

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

For clarification—and I may have to point to my deputy to confirm the numbers—I believe we've added about 160 new IT staff. This would include designers and IT specialists. The bigger point to me is not just the design of the system and people who have IT skills but developing a system where our staff who process ordinary cases will have the ability to use the digital system on the back end.

To my deputy, if there's further clarity you'd like to offer on the numbers, I'd be happy to yield the floor.

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

Maybe the minister can have staff table those numbers dating back over the last five years in terms of what the trend is and the dollars spent on contracting out that have gone out correspondingly to date. I think that would be useful.

The other thing, of course, with IT staff is that it includes programmers as well. With my information, programmers were almost 60 times as many contracted out, but there were only two advertisements during this period for regular employees. Again, why isn't the government hiring in-house instead of contracting out? You're talking about $24.8 million for this transformation.

I also want to point that, at the CIMM committee, immigration consultants and lawyers have come up to talk about what disasters the transformation and digital process are in certain areas. They're saying that they can't upload documents, and when they do spend hours doing it, the system crashes.

The minister, I'm sure, is aware of all of this. Is this what we bought with $24.8 million?

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

I would suggest that we're in the middle of a major transition, and the system we're working with now is predominantly the legacy system GCMS that the department uses rather than a fully modernized system, which will be available and fine-tuned after a few years. I think it's important that we continue to work with those stakeholders to understand where there are gaps to be improved and then work to improve them.

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

Thank you, Minister.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

That's our time.

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

I appreciate that it's a new system, but the reality is that it's not working very well. If McKinsey was spearheading this with $24.8 million in tax dollars, it's not a very good job. I have to say that.

Can the minister advise if McKinsey—

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

I'm sorry, Ms. Kwan. I'm afraid that is your time. You will have one more two and a half minute round after this.

We now go over to Mrs. Block, please, for five minutes.

[Kelly Block, Conservative, Carlton Trail—Eagle Creek, SK]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to our witnesses for joining us today.

Minister Fraser, you indicated that you have been serving as the minister of IRCC since 2021. You've also indicated that you are aware of the McKinsey contracts. It seems that you would have even been briefed on them.

Last Monday, we heard from the procurement ombudsman that there was a contract awarded to McKinsey that had irregularities. I will quote what he stated: “Mandatory criteria were inadequately defined, and were not limited to the essential qualifications.”

When a department purposefully defines criteria in such a way that only one company can fulfill them, do you think that circumvents the open and fair contracting practice that your department is supposed to adhere to?

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

I disagree with the characterization that the process was designed to result in a single eligible bidder. There were many bidders who were invited to apply for—

[Kelly Block, Conservative, Carlton Trail—Eagle Creek, SK]

Are you disagreeing with the procurement ombudsman's findings?

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

I would have to review with detail the finding to make sure I understand what I specifically agree or disagree with, but I can tell you that, in this specific instance, it is not my view that the process was rigged somehow to select a particular outcome before it got under way. This was conducted in the ordinary course, in my view, that IRCC would go through and by the department, not the ministry.

[Kelly Block, Conservative, Carlton Trail—Eagle Creek, SK]

You're saying it was conducted in the ordinary way of contracts, yet you also said you would have to look into the contract because you had no knowledge of the specific contract I was talking about. Which one is it?

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

I'm not sure I understand the question. Could you reframe?

[Kelly Block, Conservative, Carlton Trail—Eagle Creek, SK]

You said that you feel assured that this contract went through the regular process assessment it needed to, yet when I asked you about the contract, you said you had no knowledge and would not comment on a contract until you were able to look into it.

Are you in fact aware of the contract the procurement ombudsman's review is speaking about?

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

I now understand what you're saying. On my desire to review something in greater detail, I was referring to the ombudsman's report rather than a specific contract. If the allegation is that the contract was designed to achieve a specific particular outcome with one successful bidder, I do not believe that was the case. Many bidders were invited to apply on both the first and second contract. In particular on the second contract, it was important to design it in a way that had a well-established supplier of services who we would be able to trust to get the job done because this is a very important initiative within IRCC.

For further details on the selection process, I would invite our officials who have joined today to offer comment, if you would wish, Ms. Block.

[Kelly Block, Conservative, Carlton Trail—Eagle Creek, SK]

Sure.

[Christiane Fox]

Thank you very much.

We definitely did pay attention to what the ombudperson's report said specifically around the restrictive nature of the bid. We took a look at it. It was in fact true that the department did ask, as one of the selection criteria, that the bidder have experience with client service and digital transformation, so we were quite specific about that.

That said, the department did take a look at the August 21 report from the procurement office. We looked at where the ombudsman indicated the department had done good work in terms of detailing the requirements, but also at the three main recommendations that we've taken into account, agree with and are building into departmental practice.

[Kelly Block, Conservative, Carlton Trail—Eagle Creek, SK]

Thank you.

You would confirm that IRCC received numerous comments from interested suppliers regarding the restrictive nature of the criteria that were put forward, that the criteria were not changed and that the solicitation process resulted in only one compliant bid, with the bidder receiving a perfect score in the technical evaluation.

[Christiane Fox]

I'm not aware of multiple complaints from bidders on the procurement in either contract one or contract two. What we are aware of is that, in the aftermath, when the ombudsperson looked at our practices, he indicated that there was a robust suite of documents provided and that the evaluation process for bidders was well documented and well applied. There was some very positive feedback. As the three main recommendations were about good communication and, perhaps more detailed reporting, we've taken those into account and are applying them today.

[Kelly Block, Conservative, Carlton Trail—Eagle Creek, SK]

So if in fact—

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

I'm sorry, Ms. Block, but that is our time.

Mr. Housefather, go ahead for five minutes, please.

[Anthony Housefather, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Minister, someone commented earlier on the quality of your French. Personally, I congratulate you on your French. The first time we met, you couldn't speak French at all, but now you can respond to questions in French. I congratulate all anglophones in Canada who are making an effort to learn French.

I also congratulate you on your success in meeting the francophone immigration target outside Quebec.

Tell me how Quebec is different. What role does the province play in selecting who gets to settle within its borders?