Government Operations Committee on March 6th, 2023

[Erin O'Gorman]

No.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

Okay.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

I'm sorry. I didn't hear a response.

[Erin O'Gorman]

No, we didn't.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

I'm sorry. Thank you.

We'll go to Mr. Genuis for five minutes, please.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Thank you, Chair.

Minister, one of the major concerns that I have about McKinsey is how they intentionally work multiple sides of the same issue, serving competitors in the same commercial space, serving regulators at the same time as the clients they regulate and even sometimes having the same analysts working both sides. The New York Times has, for example, reported on analysts working simultaneously for Purdue Pharma and for the FDA responsible for approving those drugs.

In your areas of responsibility in the security space, I'm concerned about the possibility that McKinsey and even specific analysts at McKinsey worked for the CBSA and worked for hostile foreign actors, and that they perhaps applied lessons that they learned in their advice to other actors.

My first question is this: Before retaining McKinsey, did you seek information about what other clients they worked for in the areas of security and defence, especially clients who are hostile to Canada's interests and values?

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

Thank you for the question, Mr. Genuis.

That's one of the areas that is addressed through the award of these contracts by the independent public service.

I also want to be clear about the first part of your question. You're putting forward what sounds to me like supposition and conjecture, rather than an allegation on the basis of facts.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Minister, you said that this is one of the issues that's dealt with in the independent process. I want a clear answer from you.

Did the Government of Canada seek information about other clients that McKinsey also works for in this same space? Do you have that information?

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

Mr. Genuis, we put in place rigorous protocols when it comes to screening these contracts.

I'll pass it over to Ms. O'Gorman.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Did you specifically have that information? Either can answer, but that's my question, and I want it answered.

[Erin O'Gorman]

These contracts were undertaken based largely on supply arrangements and pre-qualification by PSPC competitive processes.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

This is not my question, ma'am, with all due respect.

I'll go back to the minister. This is the last time I'll ask.

Did you request information about what other clients in the area of security and defence McKinsey was working for, especially clients who were hostile to Canada's interests?

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

Mr. Genuis, as I've said and as you know, in the awarding of external contracts, we put in place the appropriate protocols that ensure the—

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Did that include asking for a client list, Minister?

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

Mr. Genuis, I'm attempting to answer your question.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

It's a yes-or-no answer.

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

We have in place the protocols that are necessary—

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Okay, thank you.

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

—to ensure the integrity of the contracts that are awarded.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

All right.

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

We've been very transparent.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Very transparent, indeed. This is a reading of George Orwell, it seems.

Were you aware of McKinsey's work for Rostec, specifically? It's the Russian state-owned defence conglomerate.

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

No.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

You were not. Okay.

Can you tell us if you were aware of McKinsey's work for the China Communications Construction Company that's building militarized islands in the South China Sea?

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

Mr. Genuis, you're asking about questions with regards to McKinsey outside of the jurisdiction of Canada.