Government Operations Committee on March 8th, 2023

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Madam Minister, this year we will set a record in terms of planned expenditures for professional and special services. They will total $10 billion—this was mentioned earlier. In addition, the number of public servants has now risen to 320,000, another record, if I am not mistaken.

The government has used outside consultants repeatedly. In some cases, it is initially for a new project, but then the contracts are renewed so the consultants can continue their work for the same department or another department.

Instead of setting aside funds to hire outside consultants repeatedly, wouldn't it make more sense, once it is clear that the expertise does not exist within the public service, to create dedicated teams for certain tasks and to develop that expertise ourselves?

Ten billion dollars is a a lot of money. For next year, we are looking at $19.5 billion. That is incredible. In my opinion, having our own expertise would be more cost-effective.

What are your thoughts on this?

[Mona Fortier, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

Thank you for the question.

When senior departmental officials plan to hire consultants, it is often to train public servants for a new service. It is a way of developing the expertise internally.

In many cases, we use outside resources on a short-term basis if we need help meeting tight deadlines, for instance.

One of the current initiatives that warrants the use of outside resources is all aspects of digital government. I can assure you that a lot of work is being done, and that we are also training public servants at the same time to do the work internally.

One of my team members might wish to add something in this regard.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

If we are talking about analyzing a strategic plan, suggesting innovative ideas or getting people to think outside the box, why not create roving teams within the public service that can move from one department to another to address these kinds of needs?

In my humble opinion, that would cost a lot less that constantly using consultants.

[Mona Fortier, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

I will ask Mr. Stephen Burt...

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Just make it a very brief answer, please.

[Mona Fortier, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

I will ask Mr. Burt to answer that question, specifically in regards to digital government.

[Stephen Burt, Chief Data Officer of Canada, Treasury Board Secretariat]

Thank you, Ms. Fortier.

We are actually in the process of establishing departmental guidelines regarding digital matters. We expect to ask departments to submit their action plan for hiring new employees or contract workers.

This will help us clarify matters. We want to find the best way to manage the digital shift. Do we want to invest in the public service in order to have the right staff internally or do we need to continue using contract workers?

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Thank you.

It's to Mr. Johns for two and a half minutes.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

Minister, as President of the Treasury Board, you have a mandated commitment to establish a mental health fund for Black public servants. It arose from the Thompson class action suit, which you're well aware of, the Nicholas Marcus Thompson et al v. Her Majesty the Queen case, where on July 9, 2021, the plaintiffs filed a motion seeking an order for the establishment of a fund to provide mental health services and counselling for Black public servants who have suffered mental health and physical symptoms associated with experiences of racial trauma and systemic discrimination within the public service of Canada.

It's been a year since budget 2022 and your commitment of $3.7 million for a Black-led engagement, design and implementation of a mental health fund for Black federal public servants. Can you tell me about the current status of the program, what work has been done in the first year and how much of the $3.7 million has been spent?

[Mona Fortier, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

It is an incredible, I will say, commitment that we have made to have a Black public service mental health fund in place. We have been working in the last year, making sure we prepare the strategy and that we have an ask to develop a whole—

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

I'm just trying to get an idea. It was because of the court—

[Mona Fortier, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

Because of the...?

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

—the court decision.

I'm wondering what the status is, what work's been done, how much of the money's been spent, what it's been spent on. Is the work being done, in terms of being Black-led? How many Black executives—I'm asking Treasury Board—are leading the program? What is their classification? I want to know that this is being undertaken by them.

[Mona Fortier, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

We have been working very hard to develop the Black public service mental health fund. I don't have the specific numbers out of the $3.7 million that has been spent at this time. I will provide this to you.

We will be—

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

Is the work actually ongoing right now with Black employee networks? Is this actually happening?

[Mona Fortier, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

Yes, we have been co-developing the, let's say, exercise of having the Black public service fund.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

Have you been consulting the Black class action secretariat, which prompted the need for this mental health?

[Mona Fortier, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

We are....

Would you like to answer that question, Mr. Fleury?

[Jean-François Fleury, Assistant Deputy Minister, Research, Planning and Renewal, Treasury Board Secretariat]

We have been working with the communities and networks of Black executives, as well as Black public servants within the public service, to really co-develop the options—

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

What about the Black class action secretariat?

[Jean-François Fleury]

I'm not....

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

I'm afraid that is your time.

[Mona Fortier, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

The Black class action secretariat is not working on the Black public service mental health fund at this time.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

There's been no consultation with it.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Mr. Johns, Minister—