Government Operations Committee on June 14th, 2023

[Anthony Housefather, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

I totally understand. Of course it's not your job. I just thought, given how much you know, that you might know this too.

Let me ask about something you're more familiar with: the complexity of financial statements.

The federal government has very complex public accounts. The provinces' public accounts, I would imagine, have much less complexity. They're much shorter in some cases, and they have fewer Crown corporations and agencies.

Would it be fair to say that the federal financial statements are far more complex than the financial statements for most Canadian provinces? When we're comparing one to another, they are very different.

[Yves Giroux]

That's probably a fair statement; however, I would say that when you compare provinces with the federal government, there are a lot of organizations at the federal level, but there are also quite a lot of organizations at the provincial level—school boards, health care organizations—that can be decentralized in many jurisdictions.

It's true that the overall amounts at stake are much lower in most provinces, but to say that this necessarily means that the financial affairs of a province are simpler is probably a stretch that I'm not willing to make. I would rely more on accountants who have worked in both areas to make that determination more clearly or with a higher level of assurance.

[Anthony Housefather, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

Again, that's fair enough. I was just looking at a statistic that says the public accounts for the federal government are 2,500 pages, and in the provinces the average is about 435. I was just thinking that they would be more complicated, but let me come back to you.

The reason I wanted to do that as a precursor is that we talked a lot in previous years about the time the departmental plans are tabled and the time that financial statements are tabled. As I understand it, since 2015-16, departmental plans have been tabled on time, no later than March 10, aside from one year in 2018-19, when we had a pilot project. Is tabling the departmental plans in March something that assists you in doing your job? Is that something that is helpful in allowing you and parliamentarians to do scrutiny on the main estimates?

[Yves Giroux]

It does help to have departmental plans tabled as early as possible so that parliamentarians and Canadians who are interested can have a better sense of the priorities going forward of the various organizations of the federal government, including departments. It allows them to have a better sense of the priorities going forward. Yes, it helps me and my office in doing our work, as well as many committees of the House and of the Senate.

[Anthony Housefather, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

My time is probably coming up, so for my last question, I know that I've been a parliamentarian only since 2015, but I understand as well that the financial data we've seen since 2015 is more than the financial data that was previously part of the departmental plans. Can you advise? Is that something that has been useful? Has that helped you to do your job?

[Yves Giroux]

It's clear that the more details we have as a budget office, the better it is for us to assist you as parliamentarians in your responsibility to hold the government to account and in answering your questions. Yes, having more details and more information definitely helps.

[Anthony Housefather, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

Thanks.

Mr. Chair, I'm guessing that's six minutes.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

No. You actually have about a minute left, Mr. Housefather. I can save the clock if you wish.

[Anthony Housefather, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

I'll just use that time to thank Mr. Giroux. I'm willing to yield my extra time.

Thank you so much, sir.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Thanks, Mr. Housefather.

We have Ms. Vignola, please, for six minutes.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Giroux and Ms. Vanderwees, thank you very much for being with us.

I'm very interested in the tables in your reports. They are clear and specific. Should the government use equally understandable tables in its own reports? I'm talking here about reports that can be understood by people with basic mathematical knowledge.

[Yves Giroux]

I think that providing information that's clear and easy to understand is always a plus for an organization that prepares these reports because it helps readers better understand them. So my answer to your question is yes.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Thank you. Sometimes the information provided is “confusing”, a term that my children use. There's a series of information points but no summary.

On another note, I noticed in supplementary estimates (A), 2023‑24 that an amount of $463 million was authorized for the acquisition of an emerging COVID‑19 treatment; $463 million definitely isn't a large amount compared to this multi-billion-dollar budget. I felt a jolt when I read the words “emerging treatment” and inquired into the number of people who were still dying from COVID‑19. Now one death is one death too many, but 33 people are dying from it every week. That's the same as the number of deaths caused by traffic accidents and nearly three times that of deaths caused by influenza.

Have you had a chance to question the government about this amount? What could justify it? The pandemic seems to be behind us, although we still need to be careful.

[Yves Giroux]

We don't have that information. We didn't focus on those details in the supplementary estimates. The Minister of Health might have a more satisfactory answer for you than mine. Perhaps.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Thank you.

This morning, you released the report on the $16.3 billion investment in the Volkswagen plant in St. Thomas, Ontario.

How many jobs will the government create with that investment? Is your memory better than mine?

[Yves Giroux]

According to the public commitments that were announced, the government will create 3,000 direct jobs in the manufacturing of electric vehicle batteries.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

So if I do quick calculation, that represents an investment of approximately $11 million per job.

[Yves Giroux]

My calculation is slightly different. If you believe the figures, I'd say instead that it represents approximately $5 million per job.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

You say $5 million per job. Is the impact on direct, indirect and induced employment worth the investment?

[Yves Giroux]

We haven't done that analysis yet. We wanted to provide an analysis based on the information disclosed to parliamentarians this morning, before the House completes its business for the summer, rather than take the time to conduct a comprehensive analysis and release it when members are no longer sitting.

We also had to take into account the confidential nature of the information contained in many of the documents we had received. We didn't want to break the rules.

So the economic impact analysis hasn't been completed yet, but we'll continue it in the coming weeks and months.

On the other hand, given the multiplier effect that we usually see in projects of this kind, it remains to be determined what assumptions the government could have proposed to claim or say that the investment or spending amounts would pay for themselves in five years, for example. That seems optimistic to me.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

All right.

As you said earlier, the government is seeking an additional $20.5 billion in the supplementary estimates. How does that request compare to those made in previous years, even before the pandemic?

[Kaitlyn Vanderwees, Analyst, Office of the Parliamentary Budget Officer]

Thank you for your question. I'm going to answer it in English.

We could find the statistics for a budget implementation for previous years. It would not be a reliable comparison due to the difference in the timing of the budget and the supplementary estimates, in addition to the pilot project undertaken by the government in 2018 and 2019. That being said, we can compare it to last year.

Last year, in the supplementary estimates (A), there was less than 20% of the spending for budget 2022 measures for that fiscal year in the supplementary estimates (A). That suggests that the budget 2023 items are a bit more advanced at the time of the budget or that the government feels the need to proceed with implementation of budget items more quickly this year than in the previous year.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Johns, please go ahead.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

I'm really glad that my colleagues have brought up the carbon tax. I have some comments and some questions that maybe you can help me with.

At $170 per tonne, can you tell me what percentage of households would get a rebate on that?

[Yves Giroux]

My understanding is that all households will get a rebate. That's how the system is designed. The issue is whether they will get a rebate that exceeds what they have paid in carbon tax, whether directly or indirectly. My understanding is that it varies by province, but the majority of households will get more in rebate than what they pay in carbon tax, either directly or indirectly.