Government Operations Committee on June 21st, 2023

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

That is our time. I gave you a few extra moments, Mr. Shea. We'll have another round, though.

Mr. Johns, we'll go over to you for six minutes.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

I appreciate that line of questioning. I'm going to stay on that, actually.

In terms of ways to work with the committee, what efforts have you made to work with the committee in terms of the concerns the committee has raised around the redactions that are there right now?

[Matthew Shea]

I can't speak to the work with this committee, as it's a different part of the Privy Council Office. I was called a couple of weeks ago, and I've come today. I can speak to other examples where we have sought to provide information.

As recently as February 13, 2023, the Standing Committee on Veterans Affairs adopted a motion for the production of papers, requesting that VAC provide, and create if necessary, a transcript of recorded telephone conversations from January 25. What was key to that was that, in negotiation with the department, it added to that order, furthermore, that VAC redact from the transcript any personal, identifiable information.

Our proposal would be that, in any case where it's possible, we would like to work with the committee to suggest potential redactions that would ensure that it gets all of the information it needs while respecting some of the other key limitations we may have in trying to follow other laws that we are governed by as a government.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

The Conservatives brought forward “Accountable Government”. They brought forward this document for the redactions under Stephen Harper and his government. Who was the minister who led that charge in the Conservative government?

[Matthew Shea]

I apologize. I do not know which minister led it. However, it would have been the Prime Minister who approved it. It would normally be the Privy Council Office that worked with the Prime Minister's Office to draft it, and it would, ultimately, have been approved by the Prime Minister.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

What were the Conservatives doing? Why were they so afraid of committees and parliamentarians fully getting access to information? Why were they gatekeeping it and roadstopping?

[Matthew Shea]

I do not believe that to be the case.

I believe that “Open and Accountable Government” is about being open and accountable but respecting the fact that there are other laws, other policies and other considerations. “Open and Accountable Government” covers far more than just the redaction of documents; it talks about the interaction between the public service and the ministers, which we talked about at the last appearance when I was here. We were asked questions about whether there was political interference with this. The answer was no. That would also go back to “Open and Accountable Government” and the principles—

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

Obviously, today we're hearing concerns from the Conservatives about policies they brought in that are now not working in their favour. Would it make sense for this committee to do a study on open and accountable government so that we can have a better depth of understanding of this policy that's been brought forward? Clearly, there needs to be another look at it because no one here is happy about it. Do you think it would be a good idea for this committee to study it?

[Matthew Shea]

I would not have an opinion on the work this committee should undertake.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

Okay.

There are 220,000 pages produced so far. Have you ever seen anything like this in your time at the Privy Council Office?

[Matthew Shea]

I cannot specifically recall one with this many pages, but it's worth noting that this is 20 different departments. The Privy Council's number of pages is 280—it's not that amount—so this has not been a huge burden for the Privy Council Office, as I mentioned at the last—

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

However, for the departments, it has been. Ms. Bernier explained this. Do you think the amount of time we've given to these departments to produce these documents has been reasonable? I mean, it's 220,000 pages. We did an analysis of that. Just scanning it at 30 seconds per page would take a full-time employee 1,832 hours—a year. My team can't do it. So for producing them, we're talking in the millions. We know it's $8 million, from PSPC, just to translate.

Ms. Bernier, can you give us an idea of how much it costs for your team to translate these?

[Mélanie Bernier]

With regard to translation, as I mentioned earlier, obviously there is a lot of work that goes into this with the scope of these kinds of requests.

We're still working through a second submission, so those are not included. As mentioned earlier, there's significant effort that's being put into this. For the translation, we are at $178,745.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

That's going to come out of what would go to pensioners.

This is the problem I have. We did this study to look at highly paid consultants. Now we're way off track from where we were going.

I put forward a motion to expand it and include the other five highly paid consulting firms, which are getting much more money than McKinsey. I didn't ask for every single document, because I was worried about the costs associated with that and the demands. We have a pretty good idea that they're skyrocketing. The government is basically privatizing work that should be in the public service. I have concerns around that.

I have real concerns about the cost of how this is happening for taxpayers. I'm deeply concerned about that. I'm deeply concerned about redaction and how we walk through this. I'm looking for some solutions, some sort of pathway to find a bridge between this committee and government so we can get the answers we need.

Certainly, I'm really concerned about the fact that we've spent 13 meetings now just on McKinsey. We haven't even gotten to Deloitte, PricewaterhouseCoopers and the rest of them. This is 13 meetings. We're at nine studies in this committee. We haven't produced a single report, because we're going down rabbit holes.

I'd like to find a pathway here so we don't spend more time on this and we can get some answers. Do you have any ideas?

[Matthew Shea]

As I mentioned, I think working with departments to try to scope the requests—

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Mr. Shea, I'm afraid that is our time. Perhaps we can get back to it at Mr. Johns' next intervention.

Mrs. Kusie, you have five minutes, please.

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

Thank you very much.

First of all, Mr. Shea, who is Maia Welbourne?

[Matthew Shea]

She was previously the assistant secretary to cabinet for legislative and House planning. She has since left PCO, as I mentioned.

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

Who took her place?

[Matthew Shea]

Julia Aceti.

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

Who does Julia Aceti report to?

[Matthew Shea]

Paul Mackinnon.

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

Okay, and what is Paul Mackinnon's role?

[Matthew Shea]

He's the deputy secretary to cabinet for governance, which includes machinery of government, as well as the legislative House planning role.

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

Okay, so that would be out of the PCO.