Evidence of meeting #80 for Government Operations and Estimates in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was rcmp.
A video is available from Parliament.
3:50 p.m.
Liberal
Jenica Atwin Liberal Fredericton, NB
Mr. Ossowski, in an October 4, 2023, Globe and Mail article, the Botler founders explained that they alerted the Canada Border Services Agency to their concerns in September 2021.
You've alluded to the fact that you weren't aware of that.
Can you give us any insight into how there might be a discrepancy between what they're remembering versus what you're remembering?
3:50 p.m.
As an Individual
No, there's no discrepancy.
I believe that the article reported that they referred the matter to Mr. Utano at the time. That matter was not brought to my attention.
3:50 p.m.
Liberal
Jenica Atwin Liberal Fredericton, NB
We notice as well that there's also conversation about advising how best to achieve a procurement process for GC technology.
Is it common practice for a federal official to advise a potential supplier on how to pitch a product to the federal government, Mr. Doan?
3:50 p.m.
Chief Technology Officer, Treasury Board Secretariat
I've learned of those allegations most recently, and they are currently being investigated. In terms of conduct with any contractors, I expect any of my executives to follow the code of conduct and the rules and disciplines around values and ethics.
3:50 p.m.
Conservative
3:50 p.m.
Bloc
Julie Vignola Bloc Beauport—Limoilou, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Ms. O'Gorman, Mr. Ossowski and Mr. Doan, thank you for being here today.
It's not easy to read what was reported in the Globe and Mail in October, but questions have to be asked regarding what happened and what can be done.
In your opening statement, Ms. O'Gorman, you said that you facilitated the Auditor General's work.
Could you briefly describe how you did that?
3:50 p.m.
President, Canada Border Services Agency
We worked closely with the Auditor General's team to provide the documents they needed. The Auditor General had nothing critical to say about the work our internal auditors did. They provided the right information and documents. Our interactions were the same as they are with any of the Auditor General's reviews.
Our agency was discussed in a recent report. That means that two reports were done at the same time, and I would say we worked the same way for both reviews.
3:50 p.m.
Bloc
Julie Vignola Bloc Beauport—Limoilou, QC
Thank you.
According to the Globe and Mail, the CBSA was warned of potentially questionable relationships between IT consultants and federal public servants.
How was the agency warned? Was it a verbal warning or a written warning?
3:50 p.m.
President, Canada Border Services Agency
It was through documents that Botler AI sent me in October 2022.
3:50 p.m.
Bloc
3:50 p.m.
President, Canada Border Services Agency
They are Botler AI documents. I believe someone from Botler AI is appearing before the committee on Thursday. I suggest you ask that person to provide the committee with the documents since they do belong to Botler AI.
3:55 p.m.
Bloc
Julie Vignola Bloc Beauport—Limoilou, QC
Very good.
Public Services and Procurement Canada, or PSPC, usually oversees the procurement of goods and services.
Why wasn't the usual process followed for the ArriveCAN app? Some of the contracts are said to go as far back as 2017.
3:55 p.m.
As an Individual
I was not aware of how the contracts were put in place for the work with Botler.
3:55 p.m.
Bloc
Julie Vignola Bloc Beauport—Limoilou, QC
All right.
Do you think it's normal that the usual process wasn't followed for the ArriveCAN app?
3:55 p.m.
As an Individual
Well, what I can say is that—and this is a very broad understanding here—when something urgent happens and you have contracting vehicles in place, you do task authorizations to find resources that can fill your urgent needs. I believe that's, in fact, what was done in the early days. You have these contract facilities; they take advantage of them, and if they need more help, then they have other avenues they can work with—additional resources defined by Public Services and Procurement Canada to help.
Perhaps Mr. Doan has some more to add on that.
3:55 p.m.
Chief Technology Officer, Treasury Board Secretariat
With the onset of the pandemic, an immediate solution was needed.
If I recall correctly, the agency quickly moved ahead with a sole-source contract given that something needed to be in place within weeks. The agency didn't have time to go through the usual process. As you rightly pointed out, that is the process that would normally be followed.
3:55 p.m.
Bloc
Julie Vignola Bloc Beauport—Limoilou, QC
Do you think the use of a sole-source contract opened the door to this whole thing—an RCMP investigation into alleged contracting misconduct?
3:55 p.m.
Chief Technology Officer, Treasury Board Secretariat
Sole-source contracting is permitted in specific situations, such as when a contract is valued at a certain amount or when certain people are able to fill an immediate need. Given the ongoing investigation into the circumstances surrounding the allegations, I can't say whether the use of a sole-source contract in this case played a part.
3:55 p.m.
Bloc
Julie Vignola Bloc Beauport—Limoilou, QC
The committee studied Bill C-290, an act to amend the Public Servants Disclosure Protection Act.
How is it that not a single public servant flagged the questionable nature of the contract to anyone? Why did it take someone on the outside to say that something was off? What's the reason for that, do you think?
3:55 p.m.
President, Canada Border Services Agency
I can't answer that question at this time. Certainly, that's why I referred the matter to our professional integrity director for investigation. That's also why we made the decision together to refer the matter to the RCMP.
3:55 p.m.
Bloc
Julie Vignola Bloc Beauport—Limoilou, QC
Could it be that there's a certain code or culture of silence?
3:55 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley
I'm afraid that is our time. I'm sorry.
Mr. Johns, you have six minutes, please.