Evidence of meeting #13 for Health in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was studies.
A recording is available from Parliament.
9:50 a.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Joy Smith
What we'll do now is.... I'm sorry, we've lost the connection.
Monsieur Malo, I'll pause your time. They're trying to recover it, so do you want to go to another guest? I've stopped your time.
9:50 a.m.
Bloc
9:50 a.m.
Lecturer in Biology (retired), Imperial College London, As an Individual
Yes. It follows on Dimitris' work. There has been some recent work done in Cleveland, Ohio, in Dr. Agarwal's group.
It shows that donated human sperm can be damaged by cellphone radiation in less than an hour. That damage is visible, and it could be used as a test for the safety of mobile phones, Wi-Fi, and any form of wireless communication, the results being available in a couple of days. You don't have to wait 20 years for somebody to develop brain cancer to see whether it's dangerous. You should have the details of that.
Does that help?
9:50 a.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Joy Smith
Yes, it certainly does.
We'll now go back to Greece. The connection was cut off.
Dr. Panagopoulos, can you hear me now?
9:50 a.m.
Department of Cell Biology and Biophysics, Faculty of Biology, University of Athens, As an Individual
Yes, I can hear you.
9:50 a.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Joy Smith
All right.
Monsieur Malo wants to know if you could answer the question on your research not really being addressed by the government of Greece.
Monsieur Malo, would you please continue?
9:50 a.m.
Department of Cell Biology and Biophysics, Faculty of Biology, University of Athens, As an Individual
Why...?
9:50 a.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Joy Smith
Why didn't the Greek government pay attention to your research? That's what Monsieur Malo asked you.
9:50 a.m.
Department of Cell Biology and Biophysics, Faculty of Biology, University of Athens, As an Individual
Can you repeat the question, please?
9:50 a.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Joy Smith
Monsieur Malo is wondering why the Greek government did not react to your study and your research. Could you answer that question, please?
9:50 a.m.
Department of Cell Biology and Biophysics, Faculty of Biology, University of Athens, As an Individual
I don't know why they did not react.
9:50 a.m.
Bloc
Luc Malo Bloc Verchères—Les Patriotes, QC
Dr. Sasco, in your presentation, you seemed to be proposing more public funds for research.
Can you tell me if there are situations where studies commissioned by the industry are valid? Can barriers be put up between the authors and those who commissioned the study to ensure impartiality? Can approaches be developed so that studies commissioned by industry are considered pertinent, in your view?
9:50 a.m.
Director, Epidemiology for Cancer Prevention, Institut national de la santé et de la recherche médicale, Next-Up Organisation
That is a very important question, which is not easy to answer. However yes, of course, studies commissioned by industry—possibly even conducted by industry—can be perfectly valid. So we must be cautious and make decisions on a case-by-case analysis of the protocol for each study.
Having said that, I believe that a serious problem exists when we find results that are relatively unimportant. For example, as regards the significance of the risk, beyond the figure, often what would make a big difference is the way it is presented and interpreted. For example, for studies funded using public funds, that is what led the United States, at one time, to ask that at the end of a certain number of years, in other words once researchers had exploited their results, the data itself be made available for new analysis to see if other people would interpret the same results differently. That is undoubtedly the reason why Interphone is taking so long to appear. There is undoubtedly disagreement as to the interpretation of the results among the numerous co-investigators from the 13 countries: how much is due to a real effect, how much can be the result of bias?
When studies are partially funded by industry as well, as was the case for Interphone, a certain number of safeguards must be put in place that can be... as was done by Interphone, and the funds were managed by the International Union against Cancer. That way, there was not a direct link between the International Agency for Research in Cancer and the financiers, which gave researchers a little more latitude.
I believe a great deal of transparency is required. That way at least once everyone knows what is being done, we can get clearer results. But in the past, several studies have shown that in general, the source of funding, unfortunately, is an extremely important risk factor for the results one might expect, and this is not limited to electromagnetic fields.
Studies today are complex, especially when we look at the effect of low doses with anticipated risks that are generally low and that can be in the future. We must be as vigilant as possible, have groups overseeing the conduct of the studies, and a second analysis of the results by independent teams. Moreover, the same is true for public studies; they are sometimes analyzed again by industry. A great deal of transparency is required; I believe that is the best we can do.
9:55 a.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Joy Smith
Thank you, Dr. Sasco.
I gave you an extra minute, Monsieur Malo. Thank you.
We'll now go to Madam Hughes.
9:55 a.m.
NDP
Carol Hughes NDP Algoma—Manitoulin—Kapuskasing, ON
Thank you.
Gee, there is so much information here that I just want to make sure that I try to put everything together.
Mr. Goldsworthy, you indicated that just because everyone is not affected, it does not mean that no one is affected. I think that really encapsulates everything here.
Dr. Johansson, you also mentioned with respect to our safety code, Health Canada's Safety Code 6, that the guidelines for that are probably outdated, because they talk about thermal effects and you indicate that it's clear we are not dealing with heating effects. I would tend to think that maybe Safety Code 6 needs to be revamped with respect to the guidelines for this particular issue.
My concern is specifically with respect to children as well, for the most part. Maybe especially those from the outlying countries could speak to whether or not there have been studies done with children. It seems that here in Canada there is a data gap when it comes to that. The fact of the matter is that there is no data on the effect on children of microwave exposure on carrier frequencies such as cellphones and Wi-Fi.
The guidelines talk about skin exposure over six minutes. Have there been tests about six-hour exposures here in Canada? Maybe you can just talk about whether those studies have been done in your countries. How is this affecting the schools? In your countries, are schools allowing Wi-Fi? Because we are seeing a lot of concern with respect to having the Wi-Fi in our schools here in Canada.
Mrs. Sasco may have a few answers on that as well.
9:55 a.m.
Conservative
9:55 a.m.
Lecturer in Biology (retired), Imperial College London, As an Individual
Yes, I'd like to.
Wi-Fi in the schools worries me, but what worries me even more is the use of DECT baby monitors, the cordless ones, where the child, a very young child, an extremely young child, is irradiated continuously from a distance of perhaps centimetres. What does that do to the child?
I guess it would be unethical to do controlled laboratory experiments on this, but it's happening all the time. It's worrying. It should be possible to see what the effect is.
9:55 a.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Joy Smith
Excuse me, Dr. Goldsworthy. We're just going to stop the clock for a minute. We're just working on the translation right now, Dr. Goldsworthy.
Can you repeat again what really worries you, Doctor? Some members of the committee missed that.
10 a.m.
Lecturer in Biology (retired), Imperial College London, As an Individual
What really worries me is the use of DECT baby monitors, the cordless monitors, which irradiate very young children continuously all night long from a distance of maybe centimetres. Now, that really does worry me. It hasn't been tested, and it would indeed be unethical to do controlled experiments on this. It's worrying.
10 a.m.
NDP
Carol Hughes NDP Algoma—Manitoulin—Kapuskasing, ON
I did a preview of a short film that's supposed to be coming out shortly with respect to a school in Collingwood, Ontario, where there were some concerns when the Wi-Fi was installed in regard to the impact this would have on some of the kids.
Also, we have Rebecca Ness, the mother of a young son called Keenan. In her own home, she realized that her son started experiencing difficulties when he was sleeping just over top of where the computer was. When they moved the computer, things were fine; they ended up going to a cable plug-in instead.
Over and over again we heard stories. We heard the story of another young person who had chronic headaches. Another one had chronic headaches as well, but not when the child was at home--only when he was in school.
They are actually monitoring these electromagnetic fields. They've been monitoring them outside, and inside the school, the big concern is with regard to the length of time they're actually in the school. We know that Lakehead University in Thunder Bay is actually restricting access to cellphones in the school and to Wi-Fi. Should schools be exempt from Wi-Fi? Should industry have a say as to whether or not this should be in close proximity to schools? I'm more concerned with respect to the children at this point.
10 a.m.
Conservative