Health Committee on April 29th, 2010

[Voices]

Oh, oh!

[Dr. Olle Johansson]

--that produces tomorrow's human-friendly green technology, at exposure levels far, far, far below what we are talking about today. If I'm wrong, then I would be of course very happy to be wrong, but that would also mean that thousands of papers would be wrong at the same time, and that has never, ever happened in science.

[Carolyn Bennett, Liberal, St. Paul's, ON]

I thank you for that. I think we do believe that's what the precautionary principle means: that just because something has not yet been proven conclusively to be dangerous doesn't mean it's safe. So I think that if you were in charge of writing the recommendations for this committee.... This committee isn't the arbiter of science, but we are the arbiter of the health of Canadians, and perhaps there are so many questions now being posed that we might want people to go back to the drawing board and have a look.

As a family doctor, in an observational study of baby monitors I wouldn't even know if I was telling the family doctors of Canada what questions to ask in terms of behaviour, let alone how we would go forward with a study like that. I guess some of us are feeling that one of the recommendations would be to have proper longitudinal studies on population that at the beginning would focus on children.

Obviously the regulations--Dr. Johansson and others have been pretty clear--need to be changed. There needs to be a focus on risk and on minimizing whatever risk exists by, as we heard on Tuesday, putting shields in place, and by telling people not to put their cellphone to their ear but to use the wires or whatever. What are some of the things you would want to see in our report in terms of what we, as non-scientists in this area, should be asking and calling upon the government to do?

[The Chair, Conservative, Joy Smith]

Our time is up. I tried to get your attention, Dr. Bennett.

Mr. Uppal, would you like to continue with that question?

[Tim Uppal, Conservative, Edmonton—Sherwood Park, AB]

Yes. I'll give a minute for somebody to answer the question of what you would like to see.

[The Chair, Conservative, Joy Smith]

Thank you.

Who would like to take on that question?

Mr. Hill.

[An hon. member]

I don't think we want to... [Inaudible--Editor].

[Tim Uppal, Conservative, Edmonton—Sherwood Park, AB]

I don't mind hearing it from government. Let's just see what they have to say as well.

[Peter Hill]

I'm not a scientist and I can't speak to Safety Code 6--we rely on Health Canada's expert advice--but I can tell you that in surveys we have done in the environment...and in fact, in a City of Toronto study based on concerns from the City of Toronto, they were considering a precautionary principle as well. In response to that study in 2002, we re-evaluated just last year. We measured at 61 locations randomly selected around the city of Toronto.

The worst case was one-twentieth of Safety Code 6 limits. The best of those 61 locations was 125,000 times below Safety Code 6 limits. The average was about 5,400 times below Safety Code 6 limits. That might just give you a perspective on what we're actually seeing in the environment. Generally speaking, it's very, very well below Safety Code 6 in the general environment.

[Tim Uppal, Conservative, Edmonton—Sherwood Park, AB]

On that note, with the discussion on Safety Code 6, there's--

[The Chair, Conservative, Joy Smith]

Excuse me, Mr. Uppal. Dr. Johansson wanted to comment on that.

[Tim Uppal, Conservative, Edmonton—Sherwood Park, AB]

Sure.

[The Chair, Conservative, Joy Smith]

Dr. Johansson.

[Dr. Olle Johansson]

Well, you still have to understand that even if you are on average 5,400 times below Safety Code 6, you are still a million billion times above normal background regarding third-generation mobile telephony.

The interesting thing is that for all other wireless communication systems and exposures, you are mostly much, much higher than that. Therefore, you must ask yourself, do we, through evolution, have an automatic microwave shield built into our body, it being so intelligent, so that it will protect our kids in 2010 from the kinds of exposures produced and manufactured by Motorola, by Ericsson, by Nokia, and so on?

The answer is, of course, no way, we don't have that, and therefore we must stop--

[The Chair, Conservative, Joy Smith]

Thank you.

[Dr. Olle Johansson]

The question is this: are we prepared to really take a chance on that? In Sweden, we always try to tell ourselves that it is to be better safe than sorry.

[The Chair, Conservative, Joy Smith]

Thank you, Dr. Johansson. Time is running out. I need to give Dr. Sasco and Dr. Panagopoulos a chance.

[Dr. Annie Sasco]

I just want to ask a question: what are the risks of being more cautious? It has been said that already the levels are much lower than what is permissible, so it means that we can really function at a very low level.

If we can function, I cannot see any benefit in going above a risk. As an MD, I would remind you of what Hippocrates said: first do no harm. Primum non nocere: when it's not necessary to have even a cause for potential harm, why should we have it?

[The Chair, Conservative, Joy Smith]

Thank you.

Dr. Panagopoulos.

[Dr. Dimitris Panagopoulos]

I absolutely agree with Dr. Olle Johansson and Dr. Andrew Goldsworthy.

I do not agree on one little point with Dr. Goldsworthy: that there are, maybe, good and bad frequencies. I don't believe that there are any good frequencies. I believe that all man-made electromagnetic fields above a level are bad for our health. I believe that the existing exposure limits are thousands of times above the levels where we have biological effects.

As we don't have much time, I will let others speak.

[The Chair, Conservative, Joy Smith]

Thank you very much. Actually, our time is up now.

I want to thank the witnesses so much for coming forward. Also, for any documentation that you send to the clerk, I'll ensure that it is distributed to all of the committee members.

I want to thank Dr. Johansson, Dr. Panagopoulos, and Dr. Goldsworthy for joining us via teleconference. I wish you a really good day.

We'll suspend for two minutes and then go into committee business.

Thank you.

[Voices]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Joy Smith]

[Proceedings continue in camera]