Health Committee on May 6th, 2010

[Megan Leslie, NDP, Halifax, NS]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Ms. Brown, I have a question for you. In my work with health-based charities, I have found them to be a bit measured and conservative when it comes to what they're promoting or advocating, yet here you are with the most passionate and forceful thoughts on what to do about trans fats. I'm wondering how the Heart and Stroke Foundation got there and why it's something that you guys are really leading the charge on.

[Sally Brown]

First of all, there's a lot about unhealthy eating that affects all chronic diseases. This is an issue that affects heart disease, and we really saw ourselves as the only group out there that was going to take this on, given our stand.

Rarely do you have a situation in which the data about the harmful effects are so universally accepted. Before the trans fat task force even started its work, everybody said they didn't need to question the data. In fact, we brought in international experts, in any event, to prove it to ourselves, and nobody says that what we're saying about the harmful effects of processed trans fats is not true.

You don't always get that. You get disagreement at the scientific level, but that doesn't exist, so when those two combine, and also where there is a clear solution.... It's not so easy to determine the level of salt, because it has good uses, although the impact of high sodium levels is worse, frankly, on heart disease and stroke, and that's an imperative.

But everything was so clear. The task force didn't actually take long in coming to its conclusions, and it was a unanimous report. All the factors are in play for us to have taken this position.

[Megan Leslie, NDP, Halifax, NS]

Thank you.

Mr. Godefroy, in your research, or Mr. Reaman, in your experience purchasing, when there have been bans in other jurisdictions, have you seen producers from other countries outside those jurisdictions respond somehow to ensure that they can still import? In your purchasing, have you seen shifts by foreign producers of food products, even though their country may not have a ban?

[Ron Reaman]

Do you have any details on that?

[Dr. Samuel Godefroy]

The only experience that we can speak to in terms of using regulations is really Denmark. The comparison is really difficult to make because of the nature of the supply that Denmark relies on and the sources of oils it relies on. There was definitely a contribution in the reduction of trans fat as a result of using a regulatory lever in Denmark, but the comparison with the Canadian scenario is not that easy to make.

[Megan Leslie, NDP, Halifax, NS]

I'm thinking about the moon cakes imported from Taiwan, or those kinds of imported foodstuffs.

[Dr. Samuel Godefroy]

The use of a regulatory lever will of course impose the same level of restrictions on products that are produced in Canada or produced internationally. I imagine there will subsequently be an impact on imports as a result.

[Ron Reaman]

The fact is that without the regulatory framework in place at this point, those products are not prohibited from import or use by whomever.

[Megan Leslie, NDP, Halifax, NS]

I think those are all my questions, Madam Chair. Thanks.

[The Chair, Conservative, Joy Smith]

We'll now go to Ms. Davidson.

[Patricia Davidson, Conservative, Sarnia—Lambton, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair, and thanks very much to all of our presenters here this morning.

Mr. Hetherington, you mentioned that the last published data were from 2008 and that there have been changes made within your industry since that time. How long does it take to develop new data?

[Paul Hetherington]

I think the question would be best posed to Health Canada, as they are the producers of the data.

[Patricia Davidson, Conservative, Sarnia—Lambton, ON]

Are you prepared to produce new data?

[Dr. Samuel Godefroy]

After the assessment of the outcomes of the current monitoring program, that could be one of the options that could be envisaged. We could see if the market has shifted or if the supply has changed dramatically since the time the data were collected. It could be an avenue that could be explored, but we need to have a justification for it. There would have to be a change that justifies further data collection.

[Patricia Davidson, Conservative, Sarnia—Lambton, ON]

How long would that take?

[Dr. Samuel Godefroy]

It really depends on how we design the sampling plan. Every monitoring program will have to have objectives, so it depends on how we set the objectives of what the data need to inform. As a result, timelines could be established, but I would say that we already have all the infrastructure set and all the technology we need. Our scientists were among the first to develop the methodology to get such data, if they are indeed required.

[Cathy McLeod, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

I don't know who said it--maybe several people did--but it's been mentioned that the solution in the past was worse than the original. If regulations are put in place, how are we ensuring that we are not going to have the same case 15 years down the road?

[Dr. Samuel Godefroy]

That's part of the analysis that we have to provide to inform the decision-making process. We have to look at all the implications for all the solutions and all the options that are up there, particularly for the regulatory solution.

We look at the implications and the replacement options and study them to the extent of our scientific knowledge because, as we know, science evolves far faster than we can actually sometimes cope with. To the extent of our scientific knowledge, we ensure that they do not have any unintended effects.

[Patricia Davidson, Conservative, Sarnia—Lambton, ON]

Either Mr. McPhee or Mr. Sparks, I believe, said that we need to examine the Health Canada data that we've got and identify where the remaining levels of trans fats are coming from. You referred to naturally occurring trans fats. I believe dairy was one of the sources. What are the other areas?

[Doug Sparks]

You've got a heat source, you've got dairy product sources, and you've got imported product sources, so when you're looking at these target values and reporting back on a 1.4%, let's just understand what the basket is.

If we're also looking at the food service business, let's make sure that if we have some smaller players that are not following the path, at least we have the vast majority of the larger players following it. Let's just make sure that when you do the averaging effect, you have a weighted balance for what it really is. It's very important to understand what the shopping basket is.

[Patricia Davidson, Conservative, Sarnia—Lambton, ON]

Would you agree that processed trans fats are more dangerous than natural trans fats?

[Doug Sparks]

I think the evidence has shown that to be the case, absolutely. From an industry point of view, it's just interesting that 20 years ago we saw the natural saturated products as being evil, and we legislated them completely out. That was palm oil and lard. Twenty years later, when we find out through changing science that hydrogenated products are worse, we legislate them out. Now we have many products that we today argue we shouldn't have.

Science changes, and I think we have to react to that.

[Patricia Davidson, Conservative, Sarnia—Lambton, ON]

I just have one more question, and it's for Sally Brown.

Does your organization agree with the WHO recommendations, or do you suggest something else on the trans fat levels?

[Sally Brown]

We don't have a policy statement on it, but I don't think we disagree with them, no.

[Patricia Davidson, Conservative, Sarnia—Lambton, ON]

Okay, thank you.

That's all I have, Madam Chair.