Procedure and House Affairs Committee on March 26th, 2013

[Garry Breitkreuz, Conservative, Yorkton—Melville, SK]

Maybe Randy can point that out there. It's up in the northern part of my area.

Yes, right there. I can't get there most of the year without going way out.

[Randy Hoback, Conservative, Prince Albert, SK]

Keep in mind, this area here tends to flood in the spring. Two reserves are located in this area here. The driving is mainly through Highway 55 coming across the north end of my riding in order to get into that area there.

[The Chair, Conservative, Joe Preston]

Thank you.

Mr. Cullen, for five minutes.

[Nathan Cullen, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

I have some sympathy. The riding I represent in British Columbia is some 300,000 square kilometres in size. I was just doing some math because I've never really done it properly. North to south is just short of a 31-hour drive, and it's almost the same amount of time going east to west. So I get the inconvenience and challenges of getting around.

One thing, Garry, is you were referencing your riding as a hub and spoke. We may have a difference of opinion around the term, because obviously with the earlier panel we've been focusing on Saskatoon and Regina. What I've been referring to and thinking of as a hub and spoke is if it was the shape of a pizza almost, where you have ridings extending out of a larger urban centre and you have four or five of them around the wheel as a hub and spoke.

I look at your riding, which is very similar to most other rural ridings in Canada, where you have a large area and then one or two main towns located in the riding. Do you understand why I might have confusion about referring to that as a hub-and-spoke riding, in the sense that it's very different from what exists right now in Saskatoon and Regina?

[Garry Breitkreuz, Conservative, Yorkton—Melville, SK]

The point I was trying to make is that the voice of agriculture needs to be strengthened. You may not know, this committee may not be aware, that Saskatchewan has half of the farmland in Canada, which means that agriculture needs to have a strong voice. My riding depends on agriculture. Yorkton is the third-largest trading area in the province. We have 70 towns in the riding. Most of the riding is populated with farmers and—

[Nathan Cullen, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Small villages.

[Garry Breitkreuz, Conservative, Yorkton—Melville, SK]

—70 towns. It's a challenge. If you were me, you'd hear the comments I get, such as, “You haven't been to our town yet this year.” Figure it out. How many weekends are there?

[Nathan Cullen, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

But do you see what I mean that it's not the same? It would be difficult to compare your riding to a Regina or a Saskatoon situation, just in terms of the hub-and-spoke aspect. I understand that, yes, there is an urban or a semi-urban population in the middle, but that's no different. What's unique about Regina and Saskatoon, compared to other Canadian cities of some size, is what we call the hub and spoke, or this sort of pinwheel effect where you have four or five ridings all spreading out from one city centre.

[Garry Breitkreuz, Conservative, Yorkton—Melville, SK]

The point I'm trying to make is that agriculture needs a strong voice. If you end up taking and making purely urban ridings in the province, you diminish the voice of agriculture. That's the effect it would have on my riding. We need to have that strong voice, and the more MPs you have representing, or at least partially representing, rural areas, the stronger the voice of agriculture. It's so important to the Canadian economy.

[Nathan Cullen, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

But here's what I'm trying to understand. Under the current proposal there would be six rural ridings, five urban ridings, and three mixed ridings. I'm not sure that the voices of agricultural Saskatchewan are going to be any less. Particularly if you look at where a lot of the industry connected to agriculture goes into Regina and Saskatoon, I'm sure those urban MPs, as the urban MLAs, also represent some of the agri-values.

Mr. Clarke, I want to get at something that was in your submission and that I'd love you to clarify, because on the surface I'm concerned...and I know you're guessing at what I'm pointing to. In your third point around population equity, you say:

The proposed changes also make the riding population more homogenous and decrease the influence of communities of interest. The already large percentage of First Nations has increased and it diminishes the influence of the rest of the communities.

This has obviously caused some reaction, particularly out of Lac La Ronge, a very large first nations community. The chief there, Chief Tammy Cook-Searson, wrote to this committee:

...we are offended by Mr. Clarke's suggestion that the “proposed boundaries also make the riding population more homogenous”...

—she quotes you here—

Mr. Clarke seems to suggest that the “already large percentage of First Nations” in his riding is somehow a problem that needs to be rectified.

Could you help me out here? Do you understand how that comment would seem offensive on the surface?

[Rob Clarke, Conservative, Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK]

No. What I'm hoping to say here is that I represent all the constituents in northern Saskatchewan, from the aboriginal to the non-aboriginal.

[Nathan Cullen, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Sure.

[Rob Clarke, Conservative, Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK]

What I intended to say is that Lac La Ronge is in central Saskatchewan, and they don't have the same barriers or challenges facing the first nations in the eastern part of the province and the northern part of the province. She's perfectly entitled to her opinion; however, she has access to Cameco and Areva, major mining partnerships that would help benefit the Lac La Ronge Indian Band.

When we look at Red Earth, in the southern corner of the map, Shoal Lake, and Cumberland House, they're not part of that economic development plan in northern Saskatchewan whatsoever. That's where the inequality takes place.

We look at first nations issues, and the main driving force for any type of economic development is to empower first nations to participate in the hub of development to get away from poverty. When you look—

[Nathan Cullen, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Hold on. Just because—

[The Chair, Conservative, Joe Preston]

How about if you both hang on? Because he is past his time, we're going to move on to Mr. Dion, and hopefully we'll allow you to finish the answer to the question raised.

[Stéphane Dion, Liberal, Saint-Laurent—Cartierville, QC]

I would like to start by asking Mr. Clarke not to take too much of my time but certainly to expand a bit more, because indeed I read the Lac La Ronge Indian Band comments where they say they are offended by your suggestion. The way they understand it is you are concerned that you will have too many aboriginals in your riding. It's what they understood, and I must admit that when we read the quote, it gives this sense.

[Rob Clarke, Conservative, Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK]

No. That's—

[Stéphane Dion, Liberal, Saint-Laurent—Cartierville, QC]

May I read it again?

[Rob Clarke, Conservative, Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK]

That's preposterous to insinuate that. What I'm saying is that all individuals are supposed to be represented equally, and—

[Stéphane Dion, Liberal, Saint-Laurent—Cartierville, QC]

No, no, excuse me—

[Rob Clarke, Conservative, Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK]

—and what's happened is that the demographics have shifted—

[Stéphane Dion, Liberal, Saint-Laurent—Cartierville, QC]

Excuse me. I want to make sure. Think about this same quote:

The already large percentage of First Nations has increased and it diminishes the influence of the rest of the communities.

How can we—

[Rob Clarke, Conservative, Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK]

Currently, if you look at the demographics of my constituency, 70% is aboriginal and 30% is non-aboriginal. What I'm trying to say is that you have to represent everyone equally. I was hoping to maintain the status quo. What I found the commission did was gerrymandering in trying to change the demographics of the riding.

What you're looking at is about economics for northern Saskatchewan. When you have the Pelican Narrows and the Sandy Bays and you have to drive through Smeaton to access Prince Albert.... That central trading corridor is very beneficial for southern Saskatchewan into the agricultural area. They benefit both ways, because we're seeing first nations travelling up to Flin Flon, and they're also bringing back trade into those communities. The first nations are also dependent on the southern portion of the province or in the other constituency.

[Stéphane Dion, Liberal, Saint-Laurent—Cartierville, QC]

So you're saying that 70% is enough.

[Rob Clarke, Conservative, Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK]

Seventy per cent is aboriginal currently under—