Procedure and House Affairs Committee on March 26th, 2013

[The Chair, Conservative, Joe Preston]

Thank you. We're well past the time. Hopefully someone else will give you a chance to answer the question.

Next I have Mr. Gill.

[Parm Gill, Conservative, Brampton—Springdale, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I also want to thank our witnesses.

I just have one question, and then I'd like to share my time with my colleague, Mr. Menegakis.

I guess it was one of the members of the commission who suggested that members would be able to use Skype to communicate and meet with their constituents and so on. I'm wondering how practical that may be in your ridings, if each of you can explain. I can tell you that I represent an urban riding, where I would say at least 95% of the people do have Internet and other means, but still they would prefer to meet with me in person to discuss their issues, whatever they may be, and I prefer the same. I like to have that face-to-face meeting to really understand, to meet with them first-hand and understand their issues and concerns and other things.

I'm wondering if each of you could give us that perspective.

[Randy Hoback, Conservative, Prince Albert, SK]

IT won't even let us use Skype, so that's not even an option to members of Parliament here in Ottawa. To Skype out of our Hill office is impossible. We are not allowed to use that program. Again, I assume it's to do with the technology and maybe the security. That issue might be the reason, but we can't use it, so that's not even an option. For them to even throw it on the table is kind of hilarious.

The reality is that—you're correct—when I go to the riding of Prince Albert, when I fly home on a Thursday night, I spend Saturday and Sunday in the riding visiting constituents, and I drive and drive on the weekends because they want to see me face to face.

If we want to use Skype and technology, why don't I stay in my riding and Skype in my vote and Skype in my attendance at committee? There is reality in why you want to be face to face. The point is that you want to understand the body language and the context behind the conversation. Face to face is the only way to effectively do that.

[The Chair, Conservative, Joe Preston]

Thank you.

[Garry Breitkreuz, Conservative, Yorkton—Melville, SK]

I don't think people understand what we face. My cellphone works very well when I crawl onto the roof of my house. That's what we're working on right now.

[The Chair, Conservative, Joe Preston]

Go ahead, Mr. Clarke.

[Rob Clarke, Conservative, Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK]

You mentioned about 300,000 kilometres. Mine is 348,000 kilometres, so we know the problems we face in northern Saskatchewan. One of the things is remote communities in northern Saskatchewan, or in my constituency. When I go into the riding for two or three days, I'm shut off from the outside world. I don't have communications through cellphone or a lot of times through e-mails, or even through the luxury of having a computer. That's the challenge I face in northern Saskatchewan just in regard to technology. So when I hear the recommendations made by the commission, I know it's preposterous to even try to contemplate that in my riding.

[Costas Menegakis, Conservative, Richmond Hill, ON]

Thank you.

Thank you to our colleagues for appearing before us today. My question is around the concept of communities of interest. I'm reminded a little bit of a system we have in Ontario where we have four levels of government, in essence. We have municipal, regional, provincial, and then federal.

The region does this. Saskatchewan, as a province on a much larger scale, reminds me of the same thing, although the region I live in is 1.1 million people, roughly the same as the population here. There are things that tie the community together, irrespective of the distance. That was a key point in Commissioner David Marit's report, in which he dissented from the other two members of the commission.

I wonder if you could comment on just that point with respect to your ridings.

Go ahead, Mr. Hoback.

[Randy Hoback, Conservative, Prince Albert, SK]

It's actually really interesting. I know Mr. Cullen used the example of the 500-acre farmer and the 700-foot loft, but the reality is that it's the daughter of the 500-acre farmer who bought the 700-foot loft in Regina. The reality is that if you look at the city of Saskatoon, the college of agriculture is located there. If you look at Viterra, the location is in the city of Regina, yet its core functions are outside the city per se. So to say that they're different is totally not fair in the province of Saskatchewan.

I could see that in Toronto, yes, there are different sectors, different types of economic activity going on. They would be unique, and characteristics would be different. But in Saskatchewan, whether it's mining, agriculture or forestry, what you've got are two service centres, Saskatoon and Regina, that are educating our kids to go into those sectors that are providing a service by having the head offices located in those facilities. That's why it's combined, and it's always consistent.

A good example is my own family. We grew up in Canwood, Saskatchewan, and my daughter went to Saskatoon Business College. That's what you do. That's how Saskatchewan functions.

[The Chair, Conservative, Joe Preston]

Thank you very much. Thank you, Mr. Menegakis.

Mr. Cullen.

[Nathan Cullen, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Randy, I want to pick up on that because 70% to 85% of the economy of British Columbia comes from the rural parts of the province, but we don't have this hub-and-spoke sense that happens in Regina and Saskatoon. All the mining outfits that work in my part of the world have their head offices in Vancouver, but we would never imagine it tenable to have some “extension riding” that had a little bit of downtown and a lot of rural. So I'm trying to understand what's unique about Saskatchewan. Of course there's mix and flow. The young people in my riding go to the city for education at university and of course there's interchange.

I want to give something to Rob, and I realize that the passions were strong earlier in your exchange with Mr. Dion. There are two things I want to understand in your comments. One is the homogenous part. Could you clarify it for me? I'm not lobbing an accusation at you, but it caused some reaction and it caused some offence. You are concerned about the riding being too homogenous. My riding is 40% first nations, and there are other ridings in the country that are higher than 70% or 80%, but you presented it in a way that made it seem like that's a problem. I want to understand.

[Rob Clarke, Conservative, Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK]

What I'm hoping for is for everyone to be represented equally. I come from a non-aboriginal background...sorry, a first nations background. Everyone is entitled to the same representation. What I fear is what's happening in the economics portion of the constituency. The Lac La Ronge Indian Band has all the advantages of having the offices of Areva and Cameco in that community. We have Red Earth, Shoal Lake, and Cumberland House, and they don't have the economic opportunity to participate.

[Nathan Cullen, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

You're making a distinction between first nations communities here. Is that one that is closer to the urban centre—

[Rob Clarke, Conservative, Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK]

This is northern Saskatchewan. You talked about communities of interest. It is very unfortunate how the boundaries were drawn up. What we've seen is communities being removed in southern portions of the riding. If the commission had a common-sense approach, there wouldn't have been an issue. Right now, in the current system, I'm not happy with what the commission has recommended. If they had left it at the status quo, if they had left it at normal, I wouldn't have had a problem with it.

[Nathan Cullen, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Let me take you up on this. You used a word earlier that I'm wondering if you're going to stand by, because it's a powerful word when we're talking about electoral commissions. You said the electoral commission “gerrymandered” the riding. Do you stand by that statement?

[Rob Clarke, Conservative, Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK]

Well, they've taken population away from me and haven't replaced that population. That's where I get upset.

[Nathan Cullen, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

But do you understand my question about gerrymandering? Gerrymandering is a specific idea, and you've said the commission gerrymandered the riding.

[Rob Clarke, Conservative, Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK]

I stand by that comment.

[Nathan Cullen, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Gerrymandering is a process of setting electoral districts that attempts to establish a political advantage for a particular party or group by manipulating district boundaries to create partisan-advantaged districts. Is that what you're suggesting? It's a pretty strong accusation of the electoral commission to say that's what they did in this case. Do you follow my point here?

[Rob Clarke, Conservative, Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK]

No, I get it. What I'm saying is gerrymandering is what they've done in not replacing any population. My opinion is that they haven't met the mandate of what the commission is supposed to be doing, and that's where I get upset.

[Nathan Cullen, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Okay.

[Randy Hoback, Conservative, Prince Albert, SK]

Mr. Cullen, at the start you asked what the difference was between Saskatchewan and B.C. There's quite a difference. The average population in Saskatchewan per MP is 68,000 to 70,000 people. When you go to B.C., it's probably 120,000 to 130,000 per MP. The limitation factor for an MP isn't the number of people; it's actual distance. It's the ability to travel and see your constituents and the distance involved.

It's unfortunate that we have to have some big ridings. That's the reality. But we don't need to create urban-rural divisions when you're not hitting that 100,000-person threshold. That's not the factor. Having somebody in Saskatoon with 68,000 people in a 12-block centre, and then having the MP right next to him travelling 600 square kilometres—that doesn't make a lot of sense for constituent service.

[Nathan Cullen, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

I understand.

I wonder if I have any time left.

[The Chair, Conservative, Joe Preston]

You have 15 seconds left.

[Nathan Cullen, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

It wasn't my intention, Chair. Randy slipped one in on me.