Evidence of meeting #19 for Procedure and House Affairs in the 41st Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was chair.
A recording is available from Parliament.
7:55 p.m.
Conservative
Tom Lukiwski Conservative Regina—Lumsden—Lake Centre, SK
I'm sure in your opinion you're always right, Tom.
7:55 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Joe Preston
Mr. Christopherson—
I'm sorry, Mr. Martin, would you like to add your short dissertation to that same point of order?
7:55 p.m.
NDP
Pat Martin NDP Winnipeg Centre, MB
As a fellow chair, I would like clarification on the reasoning of Mr. Lukiwski. He seems to have a lot to say about the rules of order as they pertain to parliamentary committees, but I've always been under the understanding that when someone is subbed in properly with a substitution sheet, etc., as long as that person has backed away from the table, they are allowed to continue to be in the room.
Do you conduct your committee differently at procedure and House affairs?
I wonder if the clerk would clarify that for me for future reference, because I intend to speak on this motion. I'm on the list, and hope springs eternal that somewhere before dawn I will get an opportunity to speak on this motion. I need to know these rules too as we substitute further for personal breaks, etc.
7:55 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Joe Preston
Mr. Martin, at your committee you have a clerk too, and you could certainly ask them for all of that information.
7:55 p.m.
NDP
Pat Martin NDP Winnipeg Centre, MB
Yes, but I won't be seeing him before I speak on this motion, so when it comes to substituting back and forth—
7:55 p.m.
NDP
Pat Martin NDP Winnipeg Centre, MB
Mr. Lukiwski seems to know it all. He seems to be helping you to chair the meeting here.
Tom, maybe I should be asking you this. Isn't it true that in most committees, if you sub somebody in, as long as the person is backed away from the table it's the person who has the pink slip in their favour?
7:55 p.m.
Conservative
Tom Lukiwski Conservative Regina—Lumsden—Lake Centre, SK
I'll defer to the chair, Pat. Come on, now.
7:55 p.m.
Conservative
Tom Lukiwski Conservative Regina—Lumsden—Lake Centre, SK
I know just a little bit more than you in this case, Pat, yes.
7:55 p.m.
NDP
Thomas Mulcair NDP Outremont, QC
We're going to have lots of pink slips for the Conservatives at the next election.
7:55 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Joe Preston
Excuse me, gentlemen.
Please, not across the table but perhaps through the chair. I don't really want it either, but through the chair is better.
7:55 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Joe Preston
Mr. Martin, the rule truly is that if someone is signed in but the member is still in the room, then they are the recognized member. However, any member at the table can speak if the committee allows them to and recognizes them.
So there are a couple of different ways in which members can speak at the table. Those are two. In the case where we're at, I've given you why I've made my ruling.
7:55 p.m.
NDP
Pat Martin NDP Winnipeg Centre, MB
This is a televised meeting, and I don't want to let the permanent record stand that Tom Lukiwski says that the leader of my party was out of order in the intervention he made.
Will you agree that Mr. Mulcair was in fact in order in participating in the point of order that Tom put forward, and that you in fact recognized him?
7:55 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Joe Preston
Mr. Martin, I'm not certain whether I care whether you like what I've said or not said.
7:55 p.m.
NDP
Pat Martin NDP Winnipeg Centre, MB
I didn't say I didn't like it. I said I want you to rule on whether or not he was in order.
8 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Joe Preston
This is a lot like one of your predecessors sitting there.
I think when I start to give a ruling, you should at least give respect to the chair and let me finish speaking.
8 p.m.
NDP
Pat Martin NDP Winnipeg Centre, MB
If that's what you're intending to do, by all means take your time.
8 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Joe Preston
I've told you what the position is with regard to when a member can speak in this room, and I've given you those positions.
We'll carry on with Mr. Christopherson, on debate.
8 p.m.
NDP
Pat Martin NDP Winnipeg Centre, MB
The point I'm not satisfied with, Mr. Chairman, is that I don't want the permanent record to show, as Lukiwski alleges, that the leader of my party was out of order when he participated in the point of order put forward by Tom Lukiwski.
Was he or was he not in order?
This is a televised meeting, with a permanent record associated with it. We're not in camera. I want to know that the points that my leader made are valid and will be on the permanent record here, and that he was in order.
8 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Joe Preston
I've given you my opinion that if the member who has been substituted for is still in the room, they're the one legally here to speak—
8 p.m.
A voice
To be recognized.