Evidence of meeting #26 for Procedure and House Affairs in the 41st Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was vouching.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Leilani Farha  Executive Director, Canada Without Poverty
Raji Mangat  Counsel, British Columbia Civil Liberties Association
Cara Zwibel  Director, Fundamental Freedoms Program, Canadian Civil Liberties Association
James Quail  Lawyer, As an Individual
Patti Tamara Lenard  Research Associate, Canadian Centre for Policy Alternatives
Pippa Norris  Professor, John F Kennedy School of Government, Harvard University, As an Individual
Alex Marland  Associate Professor, Political Science, Memorial University of Newfoundland, As an Individual
Jon Pammett  Professor, Political Science, Carleton University, As an Individual

8:45 p.m.

Conservative

Scott Reid Conservative Lanark—Frontenac—Lennox and Addington, ON

Thank you.

Just to follow up on what Professor Quail was saying, I concur that some of the pieces of ID that are on that list probably shouldn't be on the list. The library card is an excellent example.

I have always been mystified as to why the Chief Electoral Officer decided to just say “a lease” as opposed to saying “a non-commercial lease”. I actually thought of bringing in all the leases that have my name on them to make this point, or “a current lease” would be helpful, too. Because I keep all my expired leases and apparently they all qualify me in different ridings.

There are problems with this system right now and its lack of security. But it seems to me that the fundamental problem, if I may say so, is that we moved from the process of enumeration, which gave us a current list. It had all kinds of problems. They'd take the list, they'd confirm the list, they'd put it up on a telephone pole, and you would then check it. Everybody remembers that. Mr. Christopherson is nodding that he remembers that, too.

So it had its issues but it was current. What we've tried to move to is a permanent list, and it has massive errors in it.

By the Chief Electoral Officer's own reports, it has an error rate as to people's place of residence of around 16% to 17%. The voter information card is produced from the preliminary list, not from the final list, so it retains that error rate. He says there are some ridings in the country where the rate is over 20%. So there is a fundamental problem that I think exists that needs to be addressed.

It seems to me that much of what is going on in this bill is an attempt to deal with this, including the fact that the voter information card will not be permissible as a means of proving identity, something that does not exist under the current law but which the Chief Electoral Officer announced he would be doing in the future.

I say all of this just to draw attention to something I thought was a problem that is not actually anything that was contained in the testimony of the two witnesses. But maybe I should just turn to something that was discussed by Mr. Simms and Ms. Lenard, and perhaps Mr. Quail also, who have all mentioned this model where one swears an oath. I gather that, according to Mr. Simms, the ballot is then placed in a blank envelope and is counted after the fact when the identity is approved.

If something like that were done, would that actually resolve the issues that are of concern to you with regard to the abolition of vouching?

8:45 p.m.

Research Associate, Canadian Centre for Policy Alternatives

Prof. Patti Tamara Lenard

I think Mr. Quail is the one who referenced that procedure so I think it would be best if he answered that question.

8:45 p.m.

Conservative

Scott Reid Conservative Lanark—Frontenac—Lennox and Addington, ON

Sure.

8:45 p.m.

Lawyer, As an Individual

James Quail

Yes, in my opinion it would, as long as the process for verifying the ballot is reasonable. We have a system where we have scrutineers from the parties who are there. People can challenge things and there would be an opportunity for whatever investigations were required. That would solve the problem, and it would solve the problem in a way that eliminating documents from the list make it worse. But this would provide what we've called a safety net that reliably would provide a means for every eligible Canadian citizen to cast a ballot.

That's what we're seeking. That's what we told the court should have been inserted into the bill.

If that's the direction the government is moving in, then I applaud them for it.

8:50 p.m.

NDP

David Christopherson NDP Hamilton Centre, ON

Hold your applause. We're not there yet.

8:50 p.m.

Conservative

Scott Reid Conservative Lanark—Frontenac—Lennox and Addington, ON

I think it was tentative, Mr. Christopherson. That was my impression.

Do you have comments on this system, Ms. Lenard? I don't want to put you on the spot if you haven't put any thought into it in advance.

8:50 p.m.

Research Associate, Canadian Centre for Policy Alternatives

Prof. Patti Tamara Lenard

No, I haven't. I read about it in the news yesterday and today. I can tell you what I thought about the news, but I don't think that entitles me to a view here.

8:50 p.m.

Conservative

Scott Reid Conservative Lanark—Frontenac—Lennox and Addington, ON

All right. Thank you very much to both of you.

8:50 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Joe Preston

Thank you, Mr. Reid. Boy, that was bang on four minutes. You're accurate. Thank you.

I think we'll stop at this point, though, and thank our witnesses for being here today.

Mr. Quail and Professor Lenard, thanks to both of you for being here.

We will suspend for a couple of minutes.

8:50 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Joe Preston

We'll get started. We are in the third hour of our study tonight, and we have some guests with us.

Professor Pammett, you're at the table with us. Thank you for being here.

Via video conference, we have from St. John's, Newfoundland and Labrador, Professor Marland; and from Sydney, Australia, Professor Norris.

8:50 p.m.

Dr. Pippa Norris Professor, John F Kennedy School of Government, Harvard University, As an Individual

Thank you.

8:50 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Joe Preston

We can hear you—fantastic—and now we can see you.

Is it a lovely morning in Australia?

8:50 p.m.

Professor, John F Kennedy School of Government, Harvard University, As an Individual

Dr. Pippa Norris

It's gorgeous. It's morning and it's 30 degrees centigrade. It's beautiful.

8:50 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Joe Preston

I'm sure.

8:50 p.m.

Voices

Oh, oh!

8:50 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Joe Preston

Everybody in the room is mad at you now.

8:50 p.m.

Professor, John F Kennedy School of Government, Harvard University, As an Individual

8:50 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Joe Preston

Here's how we'll proceed. Each of you will have some time for an opening statement to us. We'll begin with our video guests first, just in case we end up losing the connection.

Professor Norris, we'll start with you for an opening statement.

Then we'll go to you, Professor Marland, and then to Professor Pammett.

After that, the members of the committee will ask questions of all of you—and/or none of you, whichever they wish—and get their answers.

Professor Norris, please go ahead.

9 p.m.

Professor, John F Kennedy School of Government, Harvard University, As an Individual

Dr. Pippa Norris

Thank you, Mr. Preston.

I'm honoured to contribute toward the deliberations of the Canadian Parliament on this important issue, and I thank the committee for inviting me.

I want to make four sets of remarks: a bit of background, something about the standards that we're going to talk about, the problems, and then a little detail.

Firstly, on the background, I'm engaged in this because I direct the electoral integrity project. This project looks worldwide at issues of elections. It's based in Harvard University and the University of Sydney. We monitor the problems of elections around the world, from issues facing the United States, Britain, and Canada, through to cases of fragile states, such as Afghanistan, Kenya, and Thailand.

What are the standards you can use to judge whether or not any new legislation is going to be effective? I think we can agree on certain principles, which are recognized in international law and which have been endorsed by the international community. I'd like to suggest four principles.

Firstly, electoral management bodies should be impartial, fair, effective, and independent—this is important in every country—and they have to have the capacity to manage contests. I think we can all agree that's an important criteria for trust. Secondly, voting procedures should be secure, honest and fair, and they should include all eligible voters. Thirdly, the role of money in politics, particularly private money, should be transparent and should provide a level playing field for all parties. Fourthly, electoral laws and registration regulations should be subject to widespread consultation and consensus amongst all parties.

The next point I want to make is that if we can agree on these standards—and I think they are universal; they're accepted in many countries around the world and by most international bodies—the fair elections act in Canada, which is proposed, has a problem in meeting these four goals in four ways.

Firstly, I think that some of the provisions would diminish the authority, the effectiveness, the impartiality, and the independence of electoral administration. This can affect trust in the process and can be a problem. Secondly, some of the provisions, I think, would restrict basic voting rights, and therefore reduce electoral turnout. That is clearly also a problem because turnout has gone down in Canada, as in many other countries. Thirdly, it would expand the role of money, particularly private money, in politics. Lastly, I think the process is going to lead to greater polarization rather than consensus. Once you open polarization and party polarization over the electoral law, it's very difficult to prevent that from happening in successive governments.

Overall when I look at the legislation, and I've read it very carefully, I think there might be some problems for Canada's international reputation. Canada has a worldwide role as a leading ideal type of democracy, and it could damage that. Also, other governments—and this, again, is really my concern—who are less willing to respect human rights, who are less established in their democratic institutions, could use this example, and it would therefore damage some of the world's progress in democracy.

Now in my written comments, I've also provided some detailed justifications for these claims. I don't want to go into them in great detail—I put them on the table—but I want to highlight under each of those four arguments one simple key point.

Firstly, on electoral management, I think some of the provisions would limit the ability of the Chief Electoral Officer to communicate with the public and also to provide education in civics. This is basic. Voter education is a fundamental duty of electoral bodies. Again, this is accepted by organizations like the OSCE, the African Union, the Organization of American States, as one of the key functions. The role of the institution will also be weakened by not being able to report directly to Parliament but to government.

Secondly, on voting rights and turnout, I think the committee has heard much discussion about vouching and the use of voter information cards. Quite simply, I don't believe that voter fraud is a major problem. If the Canadian Parliament believes that it is a problem, there are far more effective ways it can use to reduce problems of voter impersonation. This includes, for example, having publicly available cost-free cards hat Elections Canada provides to all voters. The Indian election going on in the next few weeks provides free cards to over 800 million people in the country. Those photo cards are with photos, which were available at the polling station.

Voter fraud can be dealt with effectively, but it needs an investment. You don't exclude voters. You include voters. You might introduce greater fines or other punishments for transgression.

Thirdly, on money and politics, clearly every campaign costs money, and you want to be able to provide that, but I think that some of the provisions are going to reduce transparency and therefore that could be a problem. In addition, there are other ways to provide resources on a fair and equitable basis to every party, including through public funding. If it's a question of not having sufficient resources, that might be the best route to go: to expand resources for every candidate and every party on a fair basis.

The last point, and I think in some ways the most important, is that you must have a consensus when you're dealing with constitutional matters and when you're dealing with election matters. It can't be seen to be partisan. If you do that, the dangers are twofold. Firstly, you can lack trust. The public might be much more suspicious about election processes, and that would be a real shame. At present, Canadian elections are held in very wide regard. Most Canadians believe that they're very honest. You don't want to damage trust in any way, because once it's damaged, it's difficult to recover. The second damage is that this can also reduce trust in electoral officials, and it can produce partisanship in subsequent governments. If you pass this law and other parties and groups don't agree with it, it can get repealed, and that again can be very damaging.

In conclusion, I think the deliberations of the Parliament are very much welcomed. We need to make sure that Canadian democracy is not damaged. We need to make sure that Canadian elections are not damaged. We need to make sure this is not an example that countries that don't respect human rights, of which there are many around the world, can use to say that if Canada can in any way restrict voters' rights, for example, then so can, for example, Zimbabwe, Belarus, or Kenya, or many other countries that are not strong democracies but that are moving towards the leading example that Canada provides.

Thank you again very much for your remarks. I very much welcome your questions about any matters of detail.

9:05 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Joe Preston

Thank you, Professor Norris.

We'll move on to Professor Marland and his opening comments.

9:05 p.m.

Dr. Alex Marland Associate Professor, Political Science, Memorial University of Newfoundland, As an Individual

First of all, thank you very much for having me. Hello, everyone.

To give you some context as to why you might be listening to me, my area of research is political marketing and communication in Canada. A lot of my research surrounds...[Technical difficulty--Editor]...people who work in campaigns at the national and local levels. As well I have reviewed party and local expense declarations for my research.

I thought probably the best use of my time and your time would be if I went through the elections act and tried to identify some areas that I thought may warrant a little bit of scrutiny. I came up with what I would call...[Technical difficulty--Editor]. I'm happy to follow up by email outlining what these are. I'll just summarize them very briefly, if that's all right.

The first one is in proposed sections 348.16 to 348.19, which mention scripts and recordings. What I would like to suggest in that area is, while there is mention that the script will be available for a year, I wonder if it would be more transparent if it said that this script would be publicly available after a year. So rather than it just disappear, it would be publicly available to researchers and others who are interested one year later.

The next one is in proposed section 350. There's mention of third-party spending being no more than $150,000. I don't have any issue with that, but there is one thing that I think everybody should think about. That is that the cost of advertising is changing. We are ostensibly seeing a big change occur at the moment, because what is happening is that you now have video advertising. Due to video advertising online, all of a sudden now there are all sorts of groups who are able to communicate in ways that don't involve money and yet our Elections Act, for the most part, is focused on stopping people from spending too much money. So I'd just like to bring that to your attention as a consideration.

Proposed section 366 mentions receipt for contributions of $20 or more. To me this is something that is worth thinking about because political parties are actively looking for very small donations. They're often saying, “Can you please donate $3?” Because of this, it starts raising questions about anonymous contributions as well. I think the $20 limit to me is one for which I would like to have better understanding of the justification.

Under proposed subsection 376(3), there are expenses for soliciting money. It's not an election expense if directed to people who have donated $20 or more in the past five years. Not that I have a big problem with that but I find it a bit confusing because it's very hard to establish, the way it's worded, who exactly those people are. How do we make sure that we're not also communicating broader messages, or how do we make sure that we're only focused on those particular people and not casting a wider net?

Another comment I have is on proposed subsection 383(2), which is regarding public availability of the election campaign return for six months and retention for three years. I'm wondering if those documents could be publicly available for an indefinite period of time through Elections Canada.

Proposed section 348.01 provides a definition of automatic dialing-announcing devices. I assume this is related to robocalling. In my opinion, it's important to differentiate between helpful outbound calls that are merely about providing information, and calls that are more of a research nature where information is being provided by the person on the other end of the phone. Increasingly we're seeing research interviews being done through electronic means. I think it is important not to confuse that somebody may be making a phone call to try to conduct a survey, and that is different than simply providing information to somebody about going to a polling booth.

As well there is a proposed subsection 421(1), which mentions a party merger is not allowed 30 days before issue. I'll just bring it to your attention that it does occur to me, what if there was a snap election? I'm not a lawyer, you'd need to look at the wording. But is there a possibility that two parties could merge and the Prime Minister could request a snap election in order to defeat the merger of those parties? I just raise that for your attention.

I have two more points to make. Proposed subsection 431(2) and proposed section 477.52 make mention of the prohibition of collusion for...[Technical difficulty--Editor]. I just wonder if there's any mention of prohibiting collusion for donation purposes.

The last thing I'll mention, which I am I personally hoping for a little bit of clarity on is proposed section 445. It just makes me wonder if the whole matter of quarterly allowances is being reintroduced—the ones that caused a kerfuffle earlier—or if I'm missing something and I didn't interpret it properly.

So thank you very much, and as I said, if you're open to it, I'll follow up by email with those comments.

9:10 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Joe Preston

I'll ask you to please do so, Professor Marland. Anything you can send to us in an email that has your statements or questions in it would be fantastic.

We'll go to Professor Pammett now for five minutes or less and then we'll get the questions.

April 2nd, 2014 / 9:10 p.m.

Prof. Jon Pammett Professor, Political Science, Carleton University, As an Individual

Thank you.

My name is Jon Pammett. I'm a professor of political science at Carleton. I retired this last year after teaching for 40-some years. I know I don't look it, but there we are.

9:10 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Joe Preston

You started when you were eight.

9:10 p.m.

Professor, Political Science, Carleton University, As an Individual

Prof. Jon Pammett

I think the remarks by my two colleagues illustrate the difficulty of commenting on this bill. We have very general or broader comments about the nature of the bill itself and then we have a lot of specific items, and I presume there are many other specific items that haven't been commented on.

In deciding what to focus on today, I thought about picking some of the smaller things, but really, the things I am concerned with are some of the broader, more general questions that other people have mentioned. I've read commentary and I'm sure you've heard commentary, so I doubt if any of the things I'm going to say are particularly new.

I've been involved with studying elections in my own research work since the 1970s and 1980s. I did studies for the Lortie commission and I've worked on many things since then. One of the things I've been interested in from the very beginning is voting participation itself—who votes and who doesn't and why this is. I was concerned about that even when the voting turnout rate was rolling along at about 75%, as it did in federal elections until 1988. Of course, I and a lot other people, have become much more concerned as things have declined since then. We know that the voting situation has gotten worse in terms of turnout.

At the federal level in most of the provinces, although there are exceptions that are related probably to the degree of competition—that's why we can look at Quebec, for example, and if you were to predict the Quebec turnout in next week's election, it would probably be reasonably high because of the nature of the competition in that election—but in general, the trends are down. People like me who are concerned about this have focused on a variety of things, focused on institutional changes that could possibly be made in order to try to make voting more accessible and perhaps more convenient, and educational initiatives and ways to encourage non-voters to vote.

Good citizenship, and I make no apologies for talking about things in those terms, requires participation. It's part of it and to be the good citizen, according to democratic theory and all conceptions of it, requires people to take an active interest in public life and to participate in politics, including elections and to follow it.

Research on political participation shows that virtually all acts of participation are connected with each other. So on the one hand, the seriousness of the turnout decline means that other elements of participation are also being affected by the decline we see in voting participation. On the other hand, if you want to look on the positive side, encouraging people to vote will also encourage them to do other things, so it's doubly important that we try to do that.

This piece of legislation is evaluated by people like me and I'm not a partisan, I don't take a partisan stand on this as to whether it provides institutional changes, educational opportunities, and encouragement to vote to improve the voter participation situation. My conclusion, along with other people that I'm sure you've heard from is that it does not. The changes regarding access to the vote, if anything, will likely work in the opposite direction.

I was here some years ago—and I was just reflecting on it today—testifying before this committee, not in this building but in a committee room, about another bill and I'm afraid I don't remember the number of the bill and I don't even remember what year it was, but maybe some of you here do. It proposed, among other things, a substantial increase in the advance polling days, the advance polling opportunities, to the point, I believe, where it was proposing opening all the polls days prior to the actual election day, which would amount to having a second election day and maybe that's the reason that bill wasn't proceeded with. But at any rate, those were the thoughts behind it and the direction it was trying to move forward on the participation front.

A little bit of that remains in this current bill. I noticed there's a provision for an additional day of advance polling. We know people are making increased use of advance polls, so this is a step in that direction. These increased voter identification requirements that are proposed here are likely to work against people for whom, perhaps, voting is a bit of a marginal activity, and there are a lot of people in that situation. It'll be a deterrent from voting.

I want to mention the electronic voting provision in this bill, not that I propose to debate the whole question of electronic voting here or act as an advocate. I'm fully aware of all the issues surrounding the whole question of electronic voting. It's available in many Canadian municipalities, as I'm sure you know, and other places in the world. Where it's available, it makes voting more accessible and it is used. This bill provides that any trial of this is likely to be extremely difficult now, at the federal level, if not impossible; so it's kind of a clue as to the direction of the actions proposed here.

On the educational front, the bill proposes explicitly removing the ability of Elections Canada to promote voting. It can inform people about voting, but it can't promote voting. These campaigns to get out the vote have been run by EMBs in Canada at various levels and in a lot of other countries in the world with a variety of messages. There's no reason, it seems to me, why this should be curtailed. This has been mentioned by others.

Then there's research. The bill proposes that, while Elections Canada can do research, it can't publish research; so its research is not allowed to be put out to the public. Why is this? I simply do not understand that provision, suppressing research. Why would you do that?

There are many aspects to this bill, and I won't go on. In general, I feel it needs a lot more additional thought and discussion before it's proceeded with.