Evidence of meeting #67 for Procedure and House Affairs in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was riding.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

11:05 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bardish Chagger

Good morning, everyone. I call the meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 67 of the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs.

The committee is meeting today to continue its study on foreign election interference.

The clerk and I will maintain a consolidated speaking list of members wishing to speak.

We have with us today the Honourable Marco Mendicino, Minister of Public Safety. The minister is accompanied by David Vigneault, director, Canadian Security Intelligence Service, and Shawn Tupper, deputy minister, Department of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness.

Welcome back to all of you.

Minister, you will have up to five minutes for your comments. Welcome back to PROC. Thank you for being here.

11:05 a.m.

Eglinton—Lawrence Ontario

Liberal

Marco Mendicino LiberalMinister of Public Safety

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I'm here today to discuss the very real threat posed by foreign interference and what our government is actively doing to address this threat to our national security.

This committee has already heard from numerous witnesses on our government's dedication to combatting foreign interference.

Today, I want to reiterate that we have put in place robust measures to safeguard our national security and public safety. As this committee well knows, democracies around the world have been faced with the growing threat posed by hostile actors. This issue is not new, and it's not unique to Canada.

The Communications Security Establishment and the Canadian Security Intelligence Service have indeed alerted Canadians about these threats for over a decade. We see foreign governments—the likes of the PRC, Russia, and Iran—attempt to undermine Canadian interests both at home and abroad.

It is one of the greatest threats looming over Canada. It threatens our security, our critical infrastructure, our livelihoods, our prosperity and our sovereignty.

I want to be clear: we are leaving no stone unturned when it comes to protecting our institutions and the interests of Canadians. That is why the government has taken significant steps to counter this threat since 2015.

As the Prime Minister's national security intelligence adviser, Jody Thomas, told this committee, “We are taking concrete steps to strengthen our counter-foreign interference approach...by making sure that those who engage in such activities face consequences.”

Since 2015, we've had our eyes wide open. We established the critical election incident public protocol to maintain transparency with Canadians during elections. We stood up the security and intelligence threats to elections task force, or SITE, to integrate our national security agencies. We implemented the G7 rapid response mechanism to coordinate closely with our allies.

Our response continues to evolve. To this end, the Prime Minister recently announced a suite of additional measures to secure our institutions. This includes appointing a special rapporteur in the form of former governor general David Johnston to put forward recommendations to strengthen our democratic institutions.

Indeed, Madam Chair, our government remains vigilant in creating new tools.

Budget 2023 earmarks $16 million to establish a new national counter-foreign interference coordinator and nearly $50 million to the RCMP to increase its investigative capacity into these threats and to support Canadians who may be targeted by foreign interference.

Further, in March, I launched consultations with Canadians on the creation of a foreign influence transparency registry to ensure transparency and accountability—to put in place guardrails against individuals who may be acting on behalf of a foreign government.

This is in addition to ongoing engagement work with the private sector, universities and researchers, and critical infrastructure stakeholders to keep them informed and up to date on how best to protect themselves.

We provide mechanisms for the public to report threats through the websites of the Canadian Security Intelligence Service, or CSIS, and the RCMP, as well as through national security threat hotlines.

Madam Chair, we continue to take a whole-of-government approach to protecting our democratic institutions from foreign interference. We must work together as parliamentarians and with all levels of government to confront this threat.

In the complex and ever-evolving international landscape, we have our eyes wide open on the types of threats that could materialize. I want to reassure Canadians that, as I've outlined today, we have a robust system in place to deal with the challenges we are facing, both today and tomorrow. Our intelligence and law enforcement agencies will work with all partners to improve Canada's overall readiness and capacity to plan for, respond to and mitigate foreign threats.

The two intelligence committees that this government has created, in the form of NSICOP and NSIRA, two bodies that you have already heard from, raise the bar of transparency, Madam Chair, when it comes to how we explain to Canadians how we do this work.

We need to ensure that we have the best advice and evidence to make the best decisions for Canadians. Canadians can expect us to take the same approach when it comes to protecting our democracy, our rights and the values we hold dear.

Though the previous Conservative government stood back and watched as foreign actors threatened our public institutions, ignoring public threat reporting, our government continues to take decisive action to protect our electoral process, safeguard our institutions and crack down on foreign actors. We will continue to defend Canada and our democratic institutions, because that's what Canadians expect and deserve.

Madam Chair, I am now happy to take your questions.

11:10 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bardish Chagger

Thank you, Minister Mendicino.

Minister, I want to note that we were supposed to have you on Tuesday, and your schedule changed. There has been a lot going on in the country. I know your schedule did not permit you to come today and I really encouraged you heavily. I apologize that you are run off your feet. You proved that your schedule was too tight, and I was a little short at the beginning.

I appreciate your being here and your comments being exactly five minutes. That's the best gift of all.

11:10 a.m.

Liberal

Marco Mendicino Liberal Eglinton—Lawrence, ON

I'm happy to be here.

11:10 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bardish Chagger

We will now go to six-minute rounds, starting with Mr. Cooper, followed by Ms. Sahota, Madame Gaudreau, then Madam Blaney. Comments are through the chair, unless we can take turns speaking one after another. I would like us to maximize our time together, and I know we can do it.

Mr. Cooper, the floor is yours.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Edmonton, AB

Thank you very much, Madam Chair, and thank you, Minister, for being here.

Through you, Madam Chair, to the minister, it is well established that the Beijing regime interfered in the 2019 and 2021 federal elections. We also know the Beijing regime has operated at least eight illegal police stations on Canadian soil to intimidate Chinese Canadian citizens, including through coerced repatriations.

Minister, in the face of this blatant attack on our democracy and sovereignty, and on the safety and security of Canadians, why is it that under your government's watch not a single Beijing diplomat has been expelled from Canada?

11:10 a.m.

Liberal

Marco Mendicino Liberal Eglinton—Lawrence, ON

First, as you heard me explain during my remarks, this government has been concrete and proactive in combatting foreign interference. We've put in place new authorities for our national security agencies, including CSIS. The RCMP has taken decisive action to shut down the so-called police stations to which Mr. Cooper referred, and we will continue to raise the bar.

We're looking forward to receiving recommendations from David Johnston and we will do a full-court press to fight against this threat to our national security.

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Edmonton, AB

Madam Chair—

Minister, I asked you a very specific question.

When the Minister of Foreign Affairs last appeared before this committee a month ago, on the question put to her about expelling Beijing diplomats, she replied, “Everything that is linked to foreign actions in Canada is under the purview of my colleague, the Minister of Public Safety.”

In other words, she seeks your advice on the question of expelling Beijing diplomats. Canadians deserve to know, in the face of interference—a vast campaign of interference in two federal elections, and police stations being discovered, it seems, on an almost weekly basis—why no action has been taken to expel the very diplomats involved in these activities.

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

Marco Mendicino Liberal Eglinton—Lawrence, ON

Madam Chair, perhaps Mr. Cooper missed what I said in my original answer, which was that the RCMP has shut down the so-called police stations and will continue to be proactive in that regard.

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Edmonton, AB

Eight illegal police stations, and not a single Beijing diplomat expelled.... Why not, Minister?

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

Marco Mendicino Liberal Eglinton—Lawrence, ON

Through you, Madam Chair, to Mr. Cooper, we're “eyes wide open” about the threats. We've put threat reduction measures and powers in place for CSIS. The RCMP—

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Edmonton, AB

Minister, who—

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

Marco Mendicino Liberal Eglinton—Lawrence, ON

—is taking decisive action, and we will continue to be proactive.

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bardish Chagger

Okay, listen. I'm going to pause the time for a second.

I get it. I'm also going to be a little lenient, because I know there's a bit of theatre involved, but let's just try.

Your last answer was very good. It was shorter than the question. Try to keep it tight. You know, Minister Mendicino, how this works. Let's try to go with the flow.

Go ahead, Mr. Cooper.

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Edmonton, AB

Minister, what is the holding block? Is it you? Is it the Minister of Foreign Affairs? Is it that your government is simply soft on Beijing? There have been no arrests or charges and no diplomats expelled. Why not?

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

Marco Mendicino Liberal Eglinton—Lawrence, ON

It's none of the above, Madam Chair. I have now been very clear about the concrete actions we have taken against so-called police stations—

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Edmonton, AB

You've taken no meaningful actions, though.

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

Marco Mendicino Liberal Eglinton—Lawrence, ON

—and putting in place additional powers to protect all our democratic institutions.

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Edmonton, AB

Since, Minister, you're not going to—

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

Ruby Sahota Liberal Brampton North, ON

I have a point of order, Madam Chair.

The first is just in terms of a technical issue, and a health issue for the interpreters.

Second, I feel that the witness is being harassed and not being allowed to answer the question. What's the point of this interaction, if it's not to get a response from the minister who is here?

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bardish Chagger

I don't have a.... I just feel like the first round's always the toughest one, and then we just have to get through it, because it just is what it is.

I don't know how many more times I can say that one person speaks at a time, and that it's difficult for interpreters. If there's advice or guidance as to what I can say or do, let me know. I welcome it.

I try really hard to run a functional committee, so I appreciate the point of order. I try to pre-empt the point of order, so I just.... I don't know, but if there's advice....

Yes, Mr. Gerretsen.

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

Mark Gerretsen Liberal Kingston and the Islands, ON

On that point of order, you asked for advice. My advice would be to at least allow the minister to start answering the question before the opposition jumps in and interrupts. That would be my advice. At least let him get a sentence out before they decide that they don't like the answer.

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bardish Chagger

I think that's reasonable.

Can we try to continue? What happens in this room, as in all rooms, is that there's a fine person who works really hard to turn our microphones on. If we can all just keep our hands away from the microphone, the microphone will turn on for us. That way we know there's only one on at a time and only one person is heard at a time. Let's try to let the mike technician do their job.

If we just keep an eye on each other, we'll see the impatience of wanting the floor back. I think we can always provide—it's an unwritten rule—the amount of time for the question or comment and answer, and go from there.

With that, you have three minutes left, Mr. Cooper. I'll go back to you.

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Edmonton, AB

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I have asked the minister three times why not a single Beijing diplomat has been expelled, so I'll ask a fourth time: Why not? What is the holdup?

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

Marco Mendicino Liberal Eglinton—Lawrence, ON

Madam Chair, in fairness, Mr. Cooper also asked about police stations. I was directly responsive to the fact that the RCMP have shut them down. We will continue to be vigilant in taking whatever actions are necessary to combat foreign interference, including, if necessary, expelling foreign officials.