Procedure and House Affairs Committee on April 27th, 2023

[Luc Berthold, Conservative, Mégantic—L'Érable, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Minister, the committee undertook this study in response to a series of revelations about the Beijing regime's interference in our elections.

Revelations that the Liberal Prime Minister and his government appear to have been compromised because of interference by the regime in Beijing have Canadians worried.

There is interference through the Pierre Elliott Trudeau Foundation. There is interference through donations to political parties. There is interference through Chinese police stations in Montreal and elsewhere.

No diplomats have been expelled or arrested as a result of all these revelations and interference. What other explanation is there, Minister, if not that the Beijing regime's interference is already working and exerting undue influence on the Prime Minister and his government?

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

As I have explained several times to date, the RCMP has taken concrete action against the so-called Chinese police stations, and we remain vigilant.

I am working with my honourable colleague Minister Joly on the matter of sanctions against foreign diplomats.

[Luc Berthold, Conservative, Mégantic—L'Érable, QC]

If it is true that the Beijing regime has no influence on the current government, why have no diplomats been expelled?

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

We will use every tool at the government's disposal to fight against foreign interference, including from Beijing.

[Luc Berthold, Conservative, Mégantic—L'Érable, QC]

If it is true that the regime in Beijing has no influence on the current government, how is it that no diplomats have been expelled?

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

I have already explained that the threat of foreign interference is real. That is why we have introduced new powers and new tools for the Canadian Security Intelligence, or CSIS, the RCMP and any organization that deals with national security. I just want to point out that it was the Conservatives who tried to block the creation of some of these new tools.

[Luc Berthold, Conservative, Mégantic—L'Érable, QC]

If it is true that the regime in Beijing has no influence on the government, how is it that no diplomats have been expelled?

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

The government remains ever vigilant on this issue. We are doing everything necessary to protect our democratic institutions, including taking concrete action against so-called Chinese police stations. The measures we have already put in place to protect our elections include the protocol, the creation of the National Security and Intelligence Committee of Parliamentarians, and the creation of the National Security and Intelligence Review Agency. I can give you a host of examples.

[Luc Berthold, Conservative, Mégantic—L'Érable, QC]

If the government is not under the influence of the regime in Beijing, why is it that after these illegal Chinese police stations were closed, no Chinese diplomats were expelled and no one was arrested?

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

My department and I will always consider every option before us, in co-operation with Minister Joly and all of my other colleagues in government. We will take the necessary steps.

[Luc Berthold, Conservative, Mégantic—L'Érable, QC]

What other explanation for the lack of action is there, if not that the regime in Beijing exerts undue influence on the Prime Minister and his government?

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

With all due respect, the honourable member may not understand my answer, but we are already taking many steps to combat foreign interference. In fact, I have already provided a host of concrete examples.

[Luc Berthold, Conservative, Mégantic—L'Érable, QC]

How can the regime in Beijing take Canada seriously, and how can the regime in Beijing be prevented from continuing to exert undue influence on Canada, if, under the current Prime Minister, Canadian authorities are unable to expel diplomats? Isn't this proof that the government is already under Beijing's influence?

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

I am confident that hostile actors understand that Canada is always vigilant against foreign interference because of our strong record. I am very proud of the work of my officials and of our government's record in creating new tools to combat foreign interference.

[Luc Berthold, Conservative, Mégantic—L'Érable, QC]

I asked the question in a number of ways, and it's clear that the minister refuses to answer. I note that the Minister of Public Safety, who is the minister responsible for protecting Canadians from foreign interference, has not bothered to take any concrete steps to expel a diplomat from the regime in Beijing or to send a clear message that we will no longer tolerate this kind of activity in this country.

CSIS warrant applications require the personal signature of the minister. Is that correct?

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

That's a good question.

Indeed, there are provisions in the act that specify the circumstances in which I am to work with CSIS to authorize certain powers.

[Luc Berthold, Conservative, Mégantic—L'Érable, QC]

By law, if I'm not mistaken, all warrants must be signed by you, Minister.

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

There are a couple of provisions in the act that require me to work closely with CSIS to apply certain powers.

[Luc Berthold, Conservative, Mégantic—L'Érable, QC]

Have you ever been asked by CSIS to sign a warrant application that directly or indirectly involved a member of the House of Commons?

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

I work in co-operation with all of the officials in my department.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Thank you very much, Mr. Berthold. I appreciated the way you asked your questions. As you noticed, I gave you a little more time because you were very respectful. You were very considerate, and I certainly appreciate it.

Mr. Gerretsen, the floor is yours.

[Mark Gerretsen, Liberal, Kingston and the Islands, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Both of the Conservative members who have spoken at this committee so far have gone beyond reality and made comments to the effect that “it has been found that”, suggesting it is a matter of fact. Indeed, there's a lot surrounding this issue that is not matter of fact. They are only accusations. Nonetheless, the Conservatives have no problem conflating that with reality.

Minister, my question for you stems from what I just referenced and the fact there's a lot of misinformation out there. You were responding to Ms. Blaney's questions about this, as well. Although it is extremely important that the media get that information out there, so that Canadians can be informed and hold their government accountable, as they should, the reality is that, quite often, there's a lot of misinformation, a lot of rhetoric and a lot that permeates into the public.

Can you comment on how that is counterproductive to democracy, generally speaking?

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

Madam Chair, through you to Mr. Gerretsen, you have put your finger on one of the most challenging aspects of having a discussion that is thoughtful on the subject of how we protect our democratic institutions and our national security.

In my view, disinformation is a deliberate device used to break the bonds of trust between citizens and the institutions that are there to serve them. It is corrosive. The way we can cut through that is by having as much transparency as possible in the way in which we, together, need to do this work.

Let me come back to the example I was discussing with Ms. Blaney. There have been calls, yes, for some time for the creation of what we refer to colloquially as the foreign agent registry. Before we do that, we thought it would be appropriate to directly engage with Canadians, so we could hear their concerns.

One of the main concerns we have heard consistently in our conversations is that there is a fear that, as we afford new powers to government, we circumscribe them in a way that is consistent with the principles of the charter. We've heard about the concerns of Canadians who wish to engage on foreign interference but are worried they will be intimidated, harassed, subject to retaliation and threatened. We need to reduce those barriers.

I would submit to you that there is a relationship between disinformation and the lived experiences of many Canadians who want to step up and be part of this work.

[Mark Gerretsen, Liberal, Kingston and the Islands, ON]

Minister, who stands to gain from that disinformation, which leads to the questioning of our democracy? At the end of the day, who really stands to gain?

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

It's those who stand against Canada and Canadian values. They are the hostile actors.