Evidence of meeting #12 for Human Resources, Skills and Social Development and the Status of Persons with Disabilities in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was benefits.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Caroline Weber  Director General, Office for Disability Issues, Department of Human Resources and Social Development
Karen Ellis  Vice-President, Public Service Renewal and Diversity, Public Service Human Resources Management Agency of Canada
Cathy Drummond  Director General, Services for People with Disabilities, Department of Human Resources and Social Development
Nancy Lawand  Director, Canada Pension Plan Disability Policy, Department of Human Resources and Social Development

12:35 p.m.

Liberal

Jean-Claude D'Amours Liberal Madawaska—Restigouche, NB

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I would like to come back to the CPP Disability Benefits Program. There are, in fact, some people who are not among the 291,000 beneficiaries or the two million people who have been identified. I realize that all may not work or have worked.

It says in your document that a large percentage of people with a medical condition suffer from musculoskeletal conditions. These may be people who perform strenuous work. In terms of the medical file, to determine whether someone is eligible for benefits, it says here that socio-economic factors, such as labour market conditions, are not considered.

Based on that, let's take the example of someone who performs physical work for many years and develops a musculoskeletal condition. If that person is told he can perform another kind of work, that means he will not receive disability benefits under the Canada Pension Plan. However, supposing that other type of work is not available where the individual lives, although it may be available elsewhere in this vast beautiful land of ours. It's not because the person doesn't want to take that work; the problem is that work is not available in his area.

What do you do in such cases? Will that person be told he can't be helped and should apply for social assistance benefits, or will he be offered another type of assistance that will help him meet certain family needs?

12:35 p.m.

Director, Canada Pension Plan Disability Policy, Department of Human Resources and Social Development

Nancy Lawand

The matter of the eligibility test for disability benefits under the Canada Pension Plan has been the subject of a number of directives handed down by the courts in previous years. The specific matter that you're raising, namely whether socio-economic factors enter into the decision regarding eligibility for disability benefits, was reinforced by the courts. That is how the Canada Pension Plan is currently structured and that is the way it is interpreted.

What can these people expect? Well, that's a good question, but the Canada Pension Plan is not necessarily the vehicle through which to address that problem. The Federal Court has been quite clear on that point.

12:40 p.m.

Liberal

Jean-Claude D'Amours Liberal Madawaska—Restigouche, NB

I'd like to take this one step further. One of your graphs shows that there is a fairly large proportion of men and women aged between 50 and 59 who are receiving benefits. That means we can apply the same logic to people within the same age group who are not receiving benefits.

Now let's take the example of a person aged 55 deemed not to qualify for disability insurance benefits. On the other hand, he is offered training. He is offered a 2-year course, paid under Part II of the Employment Insurance Act, which will allow him to increase his chances of finding a job. In two years, that individual will be 57 years old. Logically, we all know that there is not supposed to be any discrimination as regards employment, but the reality is sometimes quite different. That individual is 57 years old, has just taken a two-year course to enhance his chances of finding a job in a specific area, but ends up being unable to find employment.

What do we do with that person between 57 and 60 years of age? He was encouraged to take additional training to improve his chances of finding employment, and although I fully agree with that, this is an issue that we come up against in our ridings. People come to see us when they've completed their training. There again, an individual aged 57 is unable to find employment. What do we do with that person for the three remaining years before he is eligible to receive benefits under the Canada Pension Plan?

12:40 p.m.

Director, Canada Pension Plan Disability Policy, Department of Human Resources and Social Development

Nancy Lawand

I can only explain how the Canada Pension Plan works. I should also say -- and I believe this was mentioned in our presentation -- that the courts also stipulated that certain personal characteristics can be considered.

So, if an older person with very little education has a significant medical condition, we could, on the basis of other personal factors, consider his specific case. It really depends on the person's circumstances, ability to work and other personal characteristics.

12:40 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Dean Allison

Thank you very much.

We're going to go to our last questioner, Ms. Yelich.

September 26th, 2006 / 12:40 p.m.

Conservative

Lynne Yelich Conservative Blackstrap, SK

Thank you. I will be brief.

I'd like to hear any comments you care to make to the committee, Karen and Cathy, because we have inundated Ms. Weber. I know that Service Canada could play a big role here, and I want to know if you feel ignored. I also notice the enthusiasm; I think you have some good practices that you would like to brag about. I'd like to hear some examples about the good stuff you have done.

I also would like to know which provinces are the welfare wall. Out of the jurisdictions, how many are a welfare wall? I think that could be a huge help for our disabled people, when we come to that.

We'll start with you.

12:40 p.m.

Vice-President, Public Service Renewal and Diversity, Public Service Human Resources Management Agency of Canada

Karen Ellis

Perhaps I can start and give people a chance to rest their voices.

Within the federal government.... Before I arrived in this job, I was at National Defence for four years. I was the ADM responsible for construction for the Canadian Forces, and one of my colleagues was the champion for persons with disabilities. He was a senior admiral, and he was always saying to me, “Karen, you've got to use the construction program” to start working on these issues. Let's find the levers within departments, and not only the traditional people who deal with these issues; let's start making this everybody's business to accommodate, to think about barrier-free access to the people--civilians and military people as well--who get injured.

I can tell you with some degree of pride and ownership that I really did work with the army, navy, and air force at defence, to really push their thinking when they were designing a new building anywhere across this country, to make sure we asked the questions about barrier-free access and whether there was something we should be doing. Yes, it might cost a little more money, but over time we've got to make this a natural part of the way we think.

There are two angles to it within the government. One is compliance, because of the human rights legislation. This is a matter of legislation and law. We have to make sure we are removing those barriers and accommodating people who need that accommodation. This is not an option; it has to be done, but it takes time to add to the compliance mentality wherever we are, and into those things I talked about earlier. This is about people and allowing them to be productive and to contribute. We do that by understanding more over time and by dealing with those situations.

My best friend has been disabled for 35 years, so I have a real personal interest. She works in the public service, so I'm aware of those issues. My job as a leader in the public service is to make sure I am spreading the word, encouraging people, and explaining to them what the possibilities and best practices are. I have listed technologies that help people who are visually impaired, who are hearing-impaired, or who have other issues in working with computer technology. Good work has gone on, good work that helps a department help someone who comes into a work unit, that shows how you make it possible for them to give.

Yes, we've made a good start, but yes, we have a lot more to do. I've only been on the job for seven days, kind of owning the policy, but I can tell you that for years prior to this, as a public servant, I worked with those policies. I tried to work with them in a real way, and to work with the engineers and the other people in another department to ask them to think about this stuff, care about this stuff, and incorporate it into their natural way of thinking. That's only one small example. Yes, to go back to Winston Churchill, there's a long way to go.

I can say to you that when you have committed people and they talk to other people, that creates more committed people. The technologies, the projects.... There's a sign language project that's of interest here; we're really trying to make sure it's not just the service side reaching out and including Canadians who want to be part of the consultative process, but also making sure within the government that people can function effectively and, as was said earlier here, contribute to the best of their ability.

All I'm saying is that we have policy and we have legislation. That's the foundation. Tools and policies are only as effective as the people who use them; a lot of what we need to do is push the understanding, use, and awareness of these tools that we have within the federal government. That's really our role, with an internal focus to government, but we have to be an example to the rest of the country, so we have to keep pushing on that one.

Those are some of my thoughts.

12:45 p.m.

Conservative

Lynne Yelich Conservative Blackstrap, SK

I'd like to hear Ms. Drummond too. I think that you have a huge role, or could be playing a huge role. Are you satisfied with how inclusive your role has been, and how many barriers you have?

12:45 p.m.

Director General, Services for People with Disabilities, Department of Human Resources and Social Development

Cathy Drummond

I want to say, I never feel left out if I don't have questions at the committee.

When you have time—we did hand out an awful lot of paper—on page 6 of the deck on services to people with disabilities, there is a chart that lays out a three-year strategy we've developed at Service Canada that we have approved and are implementing. It has been my job to lead that strategy to improve our service to people with disabilities.

A very big part of that is to try to do better as we deliver all these different programs, to put them together so it isn't a mix of different things for the client. It is one person trying to give them service, and we are talking to other levels of government about trying to work together. When I was responsible for the delivery of regional programs, what really worked is when we worked across governments, particularly around employment programs.

I won't talk any more because we've run out of time, but that page would probably sum it up.

Thank you.

12:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Dean Allison

Thank you very much.

I want to take the time to thank all of you for coming today, as we work through this study on employability. You've given us a lot of good things to think about, as we try to incorporate people with disabilities, and open the framework to start thinking about that as we think about some of the needs we have in this country, realizing it doesn't just happen in one area. There can be so many different definitions. We need to be mindful of that and always have that approach as we move forward.

Thank you very much for being here again today.

That is all we have on the agenda for today, so I'm going to adjourn the meeting.