Human Resources Committee on Oct. 3rd, 2006

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Mr. Swinwood, you have about 30 seconds.

[Paul Swinwood]

Yes, we have created a partnership in Quebec with TECHNOCompetence, which is a sector council funded by Emploi-Québec. We have a partnership agreement with them, and they are our arm in Quebec for the things we do nationally. So we've worked with the associations and the different groups, and we've done quite a bit of work at that level to try to make it visible.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Thank you very much.

We're going to move to the last question of this round.

Madame Savoie.

[Denise Savoie, NDP, Victoria, BC]

Thank you for your submissions. They were very interesting.

One of the submissions described the need for a national strategy. Could you elaborate further on that? What types of federal programs would be needed to support such a strategy? How would you rate the current federal programs that lend support to the Alliance of Sector Councils?

[Paul Hébert]

A national strategy presents such a tremendous challenge that we are already starting to see local, regional and provincial stakeholders launch initiatives in this area. We're beginning to appreciate the importance of pan-Canadian coordination efforts in order to avoid duplication. There already has been some duplication and we have no time to lose on this score.

One very important component of the national strategy is identifying the role sector councils could play in the information sharing process. They could act as information centres for groups such as education networks, associations, colleges or universities.

Our programs benefit from effective, sound support. Naturally, sector councils would welcome even more help. There is no shortage of work. Our groups are small and they have rather lofty goals. We try, with our relatively modest resources, to have an impact on the labour market.

[Denise Savoie, NDP, Victoria, BC]

Currently, what ingredient is missing to formulate this national strategy? You maintain that such a strategy is needed and that it is one of your recommendations. What kinds of problems are you encountering?

[Paul Hébert]

Every day, we work with our partners on strategy development. We've yet to complete our strategy because of problems with our relations with and delegation of responsibilities to the provinces. A number of stakeholders are involved. Coordinating the process remains a challenge but we are nevertheless making some progress.

[Andrew Cardozo]

I'd just like to add something to that.

Formulating a national strategy is a complex undertaking, owing to the fact that a number of stakeholders are involved in the process.

I would suggest that there are a few major things. Having good labour market information is important so that we have an idea nationally and locally of what the needs are. Foreign credential recognition is an important issue, and the role the federal government is taking with regard to a new agency is important. Apprenticeship is an important area.

I would say that the biggest problem for a national strategy is the federal-provincial jurisdictional issue. Whatever means the federal government has at its disposal to work with provinces and school boards are useful. Sector councils are one of those options.

As Paul Swinwood mentioned, we're working with school boards and with provincial departments of education, something that the federal government doesn't do directly but that we are able to do indirectly. We have established a committee to work with school boards across the country. All provinces are involved and are very happy to be involved, and it doesn't obligate them to do anything. Rather, they are involved in a discussion. They learn from each other and take what they can from each other, all with regard to getting a more skilled workforce across the board and having provinces and school boards learn from each other about the things that are happening. Cooperation and partnership: we talk about those things. But very action-oriented programs are probably the most useful.

[Paul Swinwood]

If I may, I'll drop down to an example for this one.

Both our community colleges and our training funding partners out there across the country focus on the community, which they should. There's no question about that. But we've attempted to get some students into post-secondary, continuing education, re-skilling courses and have been told that there's no need for them in our community and therefore no funding is available.

The big picture is not being shown and looked at—and this is federal government money being spent. The focus is too much on the community. As well, community colleges and universities look at what they can attract for people from their community, for their community. There needs to be more of a focus on.... For example, suppose we need people for mining. How do people in a spot where there is no mining get mining education? How do we tell them it is there? And how do we allow them to go there to get the education and training? So there is a mobility issue; there is a knowledge issue. In Sarnia, at this time, I don't imagine that there is any mining training going on, even though there may be people who need to know about it and could get there.

The national opportunity to look at education, the ability to have mobility so students can go where the education is and have some support--

[Denise Savoie, NDP, Victoria, BC]

I have just a couple of follow-up questions.

It is a coordination role and an information exchange role, as I understand it. You specified foreign credentialling. Where is that agency at? Has it been set up? Are you part of it? Have the sector councils or the alliance been involved?

[Andrew Cardozo]

The government talked about it in the election, and then in the recent budget announced a certain figure of money to go towards that. There are consultations under way, and sector councils are involved in those consultations.

We are certainly very much interested in being involved in that agency, because we'd like to bring to the table or to that process the various needs in various sectors of the economy.

[Denise Savoie, NDP, Victoria, BC]

Very quickly, is there any federal presence at the sector council or in the alliance?

[Andrew Cardozo]

On all the boards of all the councils there's usually a non-voting person from HRSD who participates, but there are a lot more other kinds of cooperation that take place. For example, we held a recent workshop on labour market information where many different federal folks were involved. So it's a very close working relationship.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

That's all the time we have for that.

We'll move to our last round. You have seven minutes, Mr. Lake.

[Mike Lake, Conservative, Edmonton—Mill Woods—Beaumont, AB]

Good morning. Thanks for coming in. This is very informative.

Coming from Alberta, I'm very aware of the issue of labour shortages in every industry, not just of skilled workers. Try to go to a Tim Hortons to buy a coffee, and oftentimes you'll find that the drive-through is closed or that they have restricted hours because they can't get the employees they need.

My first question is about the big picture. Mr. Cardozo, in every single sector, when we talk to people from any sector, there are labour shortages, and in every case it seems that the shortage is very desperate. In your mind, what are the biggest challenges, both sector-wise and region-wise, in the country?

[Andrew Cardozo]

Region-wise is the easier one to answer. You gave part of the answer, which of course is Alberta. Alberta and B.C. probably have the hottest economies in the country, so labour shortages are most serious there. Those two provinces attract a number of young people, and then you get labour shortages in the other provinces because a whole lot of people are moving to Alberta and B.C. A lot of younger skilled workers are moving there. In other provinces, especially on the east coast, you might have an older, less skilled workforce because of that.

It's hard to say about sectors of the economy. I guess there are different stages, and some are more critical than others. The projects around the Olympics and the tar sands such as construction and petroleum are probably in the most dire straits.

Having said that, I quickly want to take it back, because I think of a number of other sectors. As you said, in the hospitality industry, Tim Hortons in Fort McMurray has to close at 4 p.m. because they can't get people to staff that. Imagine the poor people living in Fort McMurray who can't get a Tim Hortons after 4 p.m. That's a crisis in the city.

We laugh about little things like that, but it becomes pretty important when you can't get your bread because the truck can't deliver it.

It's hard to quantify some sectors that are worse off and in more critical situations. I would say there are certain occupations that are probably in more dire straits, such as computer engineering and those sorts of things.

[Mike Lake, Conservative, Edmonton—Mill Woods—Beaumont, AB]

I want to change gears and move over to Mr. Swinwood for a second.

Mr. Swinwood, your industry is perfectly suited to include and benefit from a couple of groups of underutilized or underemployed Canadians. First of all, there are people with physical disabilities. Specifically, I'm wondering what steps your industry is taking to take advantage of an enormous opportunity to use the abilities of this group of people.

[Paul Swinwood]

The interesting thing is that as long as I've been a member of the industry, we've had things like Braille printers. We have the capacity to work with people who are 80% blind. When I talk to Microsoft, RIM, or IBM, every one of the large employers has always had a disabilities capacity in the system. It's a matter of what percentage we can convince to take the education in order to to be employable in the sector.

[Mike Lake, Conservative, Edmonton—Mill Woods—Beaumont, AB]

So you're saying you're having more of a challenge with people with physical disabilities actually stepping up to apply and take the training.

[Paul Swinwood]

Applying, right.

[Mike Lake, Conservative, Edmonton—Mill Woods—Beaumont, AB]

Okay, that's interesting.

The second group of people who are a bit more personal for me is adults with autism. I think particularly of high-functioning adults with Asperger's Syndrome or high-functioning autism, for example, who may not have the interpersonal skills you're looking for as part of the package, but who may have the ability to really contribute in terms of some of the skills you require in the IT sector.

It's not something you would probably have come prepared to answer specifically, but I want your thoughts on how to include those types of people. It would also obviously require some investment to train people. I think there's a real opportunity, given the labour shortages we have right now in that area.

[Paul Swinwood]

One of the challenges our sector faces of course is a global economy. For us, if we can't find the people, then the Internet allows us to transfer work almost anywhere in the world on one minute's notice.

Part of the challenge is how we participate and what partnerships we can form as part of the social development of our community. I don't have an exact answer on the one you've asked, but I know we have a lot of organizations with a social sense within the community. If there's an opportunity that you know of, or something that can be put forward, I'd be more than happy to work with the companies on it.

One of our major issues in our sector is that we do a lot of work that is totally time-dependent and must be as close to perfect as we can make it--even though most of us who have Microsoft Windows would disagree on that. When we put applications in place, there are things we have to ensure from a safety and society point of view--nuclear power plant controls, radiation controls, some of these things. So there are some areas where it doesn't work, but there are a lot of social areas where it would work. I can see an opportunity there if there was a program we could work on.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Thirty seconds.

[Andrew Cardozo]

I just wanted to add, Mr. Lake, that I think you've really highlighted the issue there.

Regarding persons with disabilities, I've had the opportunity to work on issues around employment equity for some 20 years or more. A long time ago the debate was about the individuals and what kind of rights they would have and whether this would be a cost to employers, a cost of doing business. Today the debate is quite different. Now employers are saying they want those people. So it's not only an issue of the individual; it's now an issue that employers really want to solve and the economy has to solve, because we really need everybody involved.

So I think it's going to be a lot easier going forward, dealing with bringing those issues to the table.

[Mike Lake, Conservative, Edmonton—Mill Woods—Beaumont, AB]

I think it's important that we, as a society, start to look at these cases as an opportunity rather than as charity.