Human Resources Committee on Oct. 19th, 2006

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

I call this meeting to order.

Pursuant to the adoption of the committee's motion on September 21 and to clause 108 of the Standing Orders, the Standing Committee on Human Resources, Social Development and the Status of Persons with Disabilities will commence its study on the department's plans and priorities.

Minister Blackburn, we'd like to thank you very much for coming today. We understand how busy you are. If you'd like to take some time now for your opening remarks and for the introduction of those who are with you, later we'll ask some questions.

[Jean-Pierre Blackburn, Conservative, Minister of Labour]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman and members of the Committee.

First of all, although I am busy, I do not consider that I am granting you a privilege by appearing before you today. On the contrary, that is part of my responsibilities. And for you, as parliamentarians, it is perfectly natural that we come before you to answer your questions about what we are doing at the Department of Labour.

The Deputy Minister of Labour is Mr. Munir Sheikh, and he is with me today. There are also a number of other officials who will be able to provide assistance, as required.

If you don't mind, I would just like to move directly to my opening remarks.

Mr. Chairman and members of the Committee, thank you for inviting me to address you again during this fall session of Parliament. You may recall that the first time, I was with my colleague, Ms. Finley. This time, you asked that I appear alone to discuss in detail the work of the Department of Labour.

As Minister of Labour, I look after the workplace and my responsibilities include labour-management relations and workplace conditions for the federally-regulated enterprises. These enterprises are largely in the communications, transportation and banking sectors.

Canada's workplace is where our nation's wealth is generated. It's also where many working-age Canadians spend a significant part of their lives. It follows that the quality of that workplace has important implications for our economy and the society that we shape together.

With these considerations in mind, here is what I will be covering in my remarks to you today.

First, I will talk briefly about the Labour Program at the Department of Human Resources and Social Development Canada. I will talk about its mandate, structure, operations and the laws it administers.

Second, I will update you on the priorities and the decisive action we have taken on key workplace issues.

Next, I will share with you upcoming initiatives under the Labour Program, each with a focus on improving the quality of Canada's federally-regulated workplaces.

As you will see, the steps we are taking in these areas will go a long way to ensuring that we meet the needs of Canadian workers and employers.

I would like now to briefly discuss our mandate.

The Labour Program focusses on two principal areas: worker-management relations and workplace conditions.

The Federal Mediation and Conciliation Service Directorate administers the dispute resolution provisions of Part I—Industrial Relations—of the Canada Labour Code. This includes mediation and conciliation assistance in settling collective bargaining and other industrial disputes.

The National Labour Operations Directorate is responsible for delivering a law enforcement and regulatory program under Part II—Occupational Health and Safety—and Part III—Labour Standards—of the Canada Labour Code, as well as the Employment Equity Act.

One of the primary goals of the code is to prevent workplace accidents and injuries that could affect the health of employees. In addition, the Employment Equity Act ensures fairness and an inclusive workplace for designated groups, including women, persons with disabilities, aboriginal peoples, and members of visible minorities.

The International and Intergovernmental Labour Affairs Directorate monitors labour-related developments in all jurisdictions. It also provides advice on exchanges with my provincial and territorial counterparts. On the international front, the Program represents the view of Canada abroad on policy matters concerning working conditions, labour relations and occupational health and safety.

The Labour Program is also supported by the Research Policy Directorate.

These directorates comprise 289 employees at headquarters and 386 employees in regions across Canada, for a total of 675.

Let me turn to the five key areas of recent activity within the labour program.

First, the Employment Equity Act. This year marks the 20th anniversary since the passage of the original Act, and my department is very pleased to celebrate the many achievements of individuals and organizations who promote a productive and inclusive working environment for all Canadians.

Let me draw your attention to the Employment Equity Annual Report, which I was pleased to table in the House of Commons this past June.

Its findings were rather encouraging. It showed how, since 1987, the employment situation of all designated groups has improved in the workforce under the Employment Equity Act.

There are almost 40% more members of designated groups employed in workplaces covered by the act. This means that our efforts to address discrimination and promote fairness in the workplace are making a difference.

We are pleased with these findings. But our government also recognizes that targeted employment equity measures continue to be needed to close the gap—in particular with respect to the situation faced by Aboriginal peoples and persons with disabilities, so that representation better reflects availability in the labour market.

Our second area of progress in the Labour Program is the Racism-Free Workplace Strategy. This strategy is vital to Canada's continued success, because in facing world markets, it ensures we are able to count on a highly competitive workforce that is uniquely rooted in diversity and inclusiveness.

But let's be clear, this is the shared responsibility of employers, employees, government, business, and labour organizations. That's why this strategy is key.

I recently completed a five-city tour to promote racism-free workplaces and the removal of barriers to employment and upward mobility for visible minorities and Aboriginal peoples.

I announced our plan to hire nine anti-racism officers, whose mandate will be to work in the following three areas: to promote workplace integration of racial minorities—in other words, to be inclusive; to build a network between community resources and employers; and to provide tools and assistance to employers working toward equitable representation in their workforce.

Our progress on federal pay equity is the third area of recent activity within the Labour Program. Just weeks ago, I announced new measures to ensure that workplace partners are fully informed of their obligations and responsibilities under pay equity—and are provided with the necessary tools and assistance to ensure full compliance with their statutory responsibilities. Working women deserve immediate, meaningful results on this.

Turning now to our fourth area of activity—at the international level—the Labour Program continues to help Canada play a leadership role in promoting and protecting workers' rights around the world.

As Prime Minister Harper indicated in a recent speech, proud citizens don't want a Canada that just goes along; they want a Canada that leads.

That is precisely what we intend to do. And this includes sharing best practices with other countries. In this context, let me mention that my counterparts, Mr. Tian Chengpine, from China, and Mr. Osvaldo Andrade, from Chili, came to visit to learn about the Canadian government's workplace policies. That meeting took place several weeks ago.

There is one more area of activity that I would like to discuss, and that is healthy workplaces. I am taking action on the Joint Statement on Healthy Workplaces, which I signed in March with my fellow Ministers of Labour from across Canada.

This statement emphasizes the importance and benefits that healthy workplaces bring to Canadian society. We have demonstrated our commitment to supporting this Joint Statement through our recent contribution to the Canadian Labour Congress AIDS Workplace Initiative, and also with our ongoing promotion of the concept of healthy workplaces at public events.

I have shared with you an update on the labour program's key activities to date. I am pleased to highlight for you initiatives that will be undertaken in the coming months.

First, our government welcomes the upcoming parliamentary review of the Employment Equity Act. As mandated by law, this will be the second five-year review of this Act. It is my understanding that the Standing Committee will begin that work this year. I would like to remind Committee members that our government looks forward to working with you.

The second upcoming activity of the Labour Program is to examine the results of the report of the Arthurs Commission on Labour Standards—the first major review of federal employment and labour standards in over four decades. Headed by Professor Harry Arthurs of York University, the Commission considered carefully the views of citizens as it has looked at such issues as new employment relationships, work-life balance, and the impact of labour standards on productivity.

I am looking forward to receiving this report.

I am looking forward to receiving this report. I will be interested in hearing the views of employers, unions, and employees, and their recommendations on such topics as overtime, hours of work, vacations, and wage recovery.

Furthermore, work is well underway on the Wage Earner Protection Program. You will certainly have questions in this regard a little later. This important program aims to protect workers who are the most vulnerable in a bankruptcy.

As part of the reform of insolvency legislation, the Wage Earner Protection Program Act was passed earlier by Parliament. Implementing this Act will involve a considerable amount of effort.

In conclusion, as you can see, both our current and upcoming efforts are important. It is vital that management and workers work together collaboratively. Canada has a winning formula—an economy and society that both continue to thrive. And one of the key reasons for that is that we work together to ensure safe, healthy and productive workplaces.

Working together implies not only a commitment, but that there is an intermediary between both parties. Ensuring that this happens is the role I see for myself as Minister of Labour. I will continue to work hard to bridge differences between management and workers. I will not choose sides.

What I want is a workforce where industrial relations are strong, durable, and supported by meaningful relationships among its stakeholders. That's my vision.

Canadians have every right to expect that their government will work continually to improve the quality of the workplace for workers and employers alike.

Not only does this help to ensure a workplace that strives to be fair, safe and inclusive, but Canada wins too by offering a world-class competitive labour force.

As always, I am very pleased to work with the Committee to meet the challenges of this dynamic, ever-changing market place.

I want to thank you for your kind attention, and I look forward to your questions now.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Thank you, Minister Blackburn.

We're going to start our first round of seven minutes with Mr. Coderre.

[Denis Coderre, Liberal, Bourassa, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Minister, it's always great to have an opportunity to grill you or cross swords with you.

You talked a lot about equity and the workplace. An historic vote will take place next Wednesday on a private member's bill which, even though it is sponsored by a political party, has the support of three opposition parties. The Bill has to do with replacement workers. Indeed, you yourself took part in the debate at second reading, in advance of the vote which will take place next week.

Mr. Massé, President of the FTQ, stated yesterday with conviction that anti-scab legislation would result in 15.9 days of lost work under the Quebec Labour Code, and 31.1 days under the Canada Labour Code.

Given that things are working well in Quebec and British Columbia, and that there is a need to maintain some balance as regards relations with workers, why is the government against this legislation? Your role is to strike that balance.

I will have other questions for you later.

[Jean-Pierre Blackburn, Conservative, Jonquière—Alma, QC]

Mr. Coderre, you know as well as I do that the legislation was amended in 1999 by the government you were then a part of. When we looked at this issue of replacement workers or anti-scab legislation, there was no consensus among stakeholders. People were diametrically opposed on the issue. After a series of meetings, reports and discussions among the various parties, a consensus was reached: in the case of a strike, a contractor cannot hire replacement workers with the aim of undermining union representation. That is very clear. If the union feels that it has suffered harm, it can file a complaint with the Canada Industrial Relations Board, which will then investigate.

It is important to strike a balance. When a strike occurs, the employer does have the right to continue to run his business. Similarly, unions have the right to use the strike option to try and win support for their issues or obtain changes in wages and working conditions.

We believe that this legislation achieves the appropriate balance, particularly since, when a strike occurs, an employer has to call on replacement workers, and it isn't easy to find people with the appropriate skills to replace striking workers. Furthermore, these employees return to their jobs when the dispute comes to an end, and replacement workers then have to leave.

[Denis Coderre, Liberal, Bourassa, QC]

Yes, I understand that you are still against this legislation. As far as I know, there is the appropriate balance in Quebec; the system works very well. In any case, the legislation does allow a business to continue to operate. However, in the name of social peace, I would strongly recommend that you reconsider your position. There is a consensus in Quebec and British Columbia, and I believe the rest of Canada could do the same thing.

There is a little guy from your part of the country, a little guy from Jonquières by the name of Lucien Bouchard who really set the cat among the pigeons a few days ago. He practically said that Quebeckers were a little lazier than everybody else and that they should work a little harder.

Do you think that Quebeckers are not working enough compared to their counterparts in Ontario and the United States? Do you also believe that we're dragging our feet?

[Jean-Pierre Blackburn, Conservative, Jonquière—Alma, QC]

You made a comment about British Columbia and Quebec. When only two provinces in Canada have anti-scab legislation...

[Denis Coderre, Liberal, Bourassa, QC]

Minister, with all due respect, my speaking time is limited, and your time is precious as well. I'm satisfied with the first answer you gave me. But I would like to get your opinion about the comments made by Lucien Bouchard, if you don't mind.

[Jean-Pierre Blackburn, Conservative, Jonquière—Alma, QC]

I'd like to continue, Mr. Coderre. When there are only two provinces in Canada with anti-scab legislation in place, it's important to respect the view of the eight other provinces that don't want anti-scab legislation. The Government of Canada shares this area of jurisdiction with the provinces, and yet you would have us force the hand of the provinces by shoving anti-scab legislation down their throats, even though they don't want it.

[Denis Coderre, Liberal, Bourassa, QC]

With all due respect, you are responsible for the Canada Labour Code, which is a Canadian Code.

But I really want to know if you share the views of Lucien Bouchard, namely that Quebeckers are lazy.

[Jean-Pierre Blackburn, Conservative, Jonquière—Alma, QC]

There is no need for me to comment on each and every thing that other people say. The former Premier of Quebec, Mr. Lucien Bouchard, is a highly respected man who expresses certain views on occasion. I consider the question of productivity in Canada to be an important one, and we intend to hold a forum—I believe it is scheduled for December 8—and invite business people and union stakeholders to get together to look at business productivity and discuss the best way of achieving good productivity. When employees injure themselves, or fall sick...

[Denis Coderre, Liberal, Bourassa, QC]

But what do you think about Quebeckers, Mr. Blackburn?

[Jean-Pierre Blackburn, Conservative, Jonquière—Alma, QC]

... or when the workplace environment is stressful and working conditions are not beneficial, all those factors lead to lower productivity. I am not in a position to say whether people are hard workers or not. That is not my concern.

[Denis Coderre, Liberal, Bourassa, QC]

You are talking to me as though I am a public servant. And the fact is, I am very fond of them. But I just want to know whether you think Quebeckers are lagging behind. You never shy away from expressing your own views.

[Jean-Pierre Blackburn, Conservative, Jonquière—Alma, QC]

Who are these public servants you're so fond of?

[Denis Coderre, Liberal, Bourassa, QC]

I am fond of all public servants. I was a Minister for quite a long time. I just want to know if you think that Quebeckers are indeed lagging behind and that they should work more. Personally, I don't believe that to be the case. What do you think?

[Jean-Pierre Blackburn, Conservative, Jonquière—Alma, QC]

As Minister of Labour, my job is to try and promote productivity in the workplace. That is the goal we are pursuing within the department. Our mandate is not to determine whether one province is making mistakes or anything else.

[Denis Coderre, Liberal, Bourassa, QC]

I see. I guess you don't want to put your foot in your mouth.

I will come back on another round, Mr. Chairman.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

We're going to move to the next round. Thank you, Mr. Coderre.

The next individual we have is Madame Lavallée.

[Carole Lavallée, Bloc, Saint-Bruno—Saint-Hubert, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Blackburn, I want to begin by thanking you for appearing before the Standing Committee on Human Resources, Social Development and the Status of Persons with Disabilities. I believe your presence here today is significant, particularly since the last time you appeared, we really didn't have enough time for our discussions. I have the feeling it will be the same story today.

Something very important is going on in Parliament these days. A vote is coming up; it will take place next Wednesday and will deal with the legislation regarding replacement workers.

I would like to remind you that on November 5, 1990, when you were the Member of Parliament for Jonquière, again for the Conservative Party, you voted in favour of anti-scab legislation—specifically, Bill C-201 tabled by your Conservative colleague, the member for the riding of Richelieu at the time. I want to remind you of that fact because it is clear that something inspired you at the time. Surely you did not just vote mechanically back then, without believing that anti-scab legislation would be helpful, not only in Quebec, as you have already said publicly in the House of Commons, but also for all workers in Canada.

So, I would just like you to take a few moments to think about this and try and recall the reasons that prompted you at the time to vote in favour of this Bill. You still represent the riding of Jonquière—Alma, which is one of the most unionized ridings in Quebec, if not in Canada.

I find this change of opinion very surprising. You told us there is less investment in provinces where anti-scab legislation is in effect. Yet the Bloc Québécois demolished that argument, which comes from the Montreal Economic Institute and the Fraser Institute, two right-wing think tanks which, as you well know, play with the numbers until they end up saying what people want to hear, which is always favourable to employers. In any case, these figures covered the period from 1967 to 1993. So, they are not very recent and had been provided by very large corporations, when in fact, as you well know, the Quebec economy is based more on SMEs.

The second time you came, you said that anti-scab legislation offered no benefit whatsoever. That is what you said on September 22, when our NPD colleagues tabled a bill similar to Bill C-257. At the time, you said, and I quote:

There is no evidence to show that prohibiting the use of replacement workers would actually bring workers even one of the benefits that are claimed [...]

As you know, everyone in the world of work is saying that it does have benefits. People say that labour disputes don't last as long, that they are less violent, and that the return to work and the workplace atmosphere are far better. They also say that it ensures a more appropriate balance between job action by workers and pressure tactics used by employers.

Let's come back to this notion of “balance”, because we heard that term used yesterday and today in the House. That is your new argument. I heard you say that balance—and again, I am going to quote you—“[...] is the right of the employer to continue to operate his business [...]”

Minister, that is not what balance is. Balance means that the employer and the employee have the same rights. When there is a labour dispute, the employer goes without his production revenues, and the employee goes without his work income. Indeed, there is less production, and the worker has no work. That's why there is in fact a balance. Balance does not mean that the employer fills his pockets during the labour dispute while the workers go into debt and suffer psychological distress when they see other workers putting on their uniforms, going to their locker, to their workbench, doing their work and receiving a salary which is often lower than what they would receive. That is not balance, Mr. Blackburn. You used to know what it was, and I suspect you still do. I think I know why you voiced opposition to it today, but I would prefer to have you tell us yourself or let the people who are hearing us today arrive at their own conclusions.

Having said that, I would like to give you a few minutes to respond, because I really would like to know why you changed your mind. You have already changed your mind, because you once believed in this.

At one time, you made similar comments to the ones I'm making today. However, as Minister, rather than defending ideas that have stood the test of time in Quebec in your caucus and in Cabinet, it would seem that if the Conservative Party tells you it doesn't like something, you turn around and say: that's okay and that is what I'll say.

That's exactly how you are currently perceived by people all across Quebec and workers in your own riding of Jonquière. It's not very pleasant for anyone.

Perhaps you could respond to my comments.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Minister Blackburn, just to let you know, you only have a minute and a half left.

[Jean-Pierre Blackburn, Conservative, Jonquière—Alma, QC]

Thank you.

I intend to take the time to respond anyway. I am quite familiar with the tactics used by Members of Parliament when they ask questions. They use up a lot of time, so that there is hardly any left, but that's all right. I can still work with that system.

I just want to remind you that when you're an M.P. from Quebec, you have a particular role to play; when you become the Minister of Labour, you have to see issues from a national perspective.

Quebec has had anti-scab legislation in place for 30 years now. Why is it that over a 30-year period, only two provinces have passed anti-scab legislation? Is it working in Quebec? Yes, very well. However, don't force the other provinces to do something they don't want to do.

In 1993, even Ontario passed anti-scab legislation, and then withdrew it two years later, because they realized it simply wasn't a good idea.

[Carole Lavallée, Bloc, Saint-Bruno—Saint-Hubert, QC]

Minister, that is not what happened, and you know it perfectly well.

It was the NDP government that brought in anti-scab legislation, which everyone agreed with. But when Mike Harris formed a government, as leader of a Conservative Party like yours, he rejected it. It was not rejected because it wasn't effective; on the contrary, we know that it is effective. Even recently, the media were pointing out that there are fewer labour disputes in Quebec. In fact, the pattern that emerges is that in 1976-77, there were still a great many labour disputes, but that number has gradually gone down, and is still going down.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Just a quick response. We're almost out of time.

[Jean-Pierre Blackburn, Conservative, Jonquière—Alma, QC]

You say the Conservative government in Ontario decided to withdraw that legislation, but perhaps you could explain why the current Liberal government has not brought it back in? It certainly had every opportunity to do so, but it did not.

It might be worthwhile to look at the statistics with respect to work stoppages in our area of jurisdiction; there were 63, but in Quebec, there were 282. That was just before the legislation was passed in Quebec. In 2005, there were only five work stoppages in our area of jurisdiction, whereas in Quebec, there were 76. So, in Quebec, there are 15 times more work stoppages compared to what we have succeeded in doing without anti-scab legislation.

I would also like to say a word or two about the length of labour disputes. Between 2002 and 2005, for businesses that come under the Canada Labour Code, the length of labour disputes was 43.5 days; in Quebec, it was 46.6 days.

So, it is clear that there is absolutely no evidence that anti-scab legislation would be the preferred solution.