Human Resources Committee on Oct. 31st, 2006

[France Bonsant, Bloc, Compton—Stanstead, QC]

Okay. Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

We'll move to Mr. Martin; five minutes, please.

[Tony Martin, NDP, Sault Ste. Marie, ON]

Minister, in answer to questions over the last few weeks you referred to creating efficiencies and cutting the fat. What I'd be interested in knowing is what vehicles or what table of evaluation or efficiency models you used to determine what was inefficient or simply fat. For example, the cuts that you made to literacy will--in the Yukon, Saskatchewan, Manitoba, Quebec, P.E.I., Newfoundland, and Labrador--actually close literacy organizations with decades of work on capacity building and literacy promotion.

First of all, I'd like to know, if you have an evaluation and efficiency model that you're using, if you would table it with the committee.

Second, here this morning, could you give us some examples of inefficient and fat programs that you cut?

[Diane Finley, Conservative, Haldimand—Norfolk, ON]

There are several examples of where people, just by common sense, would say this isn't a wise place to spend money.

Your colleague brought up the notion of the summer career placement program. We were actually providing 50% subsidies to industries and businesses that said they would have hired those students anyway. Now, that's not a good way to spend money. We provided funding assistance for students, a third of whom said they would have got the jobs anyway. That's common sense. We don't need some formal matrix to say “Is this wise spending?” It's not.

So those are areas where we won't be going in the future.

[Tony Martin, NDP, Sault Ste. Marie, ON]

So there was no real matrix, and in your view summer employment programs are fat.

In my community, I know that when we gave money to the private sector to create summer work, these were some of the better jobs for some of our students. The private sector paid the going rate, and then there was a top-up so that these folks could make a few extra dollars and get some experience in some of the areas they were training for--for example, pharmacy.

Also, I want to focus for a second on the cuts you made to the voluntary sector. Do you not recognize the value of the not-for-profit and voluntary sectors and their ability to deliver programs across the country?

I was at a dinner on Saturday night for the St. John Ambulance in my community. We were there with the district manager and lots of military types around the table--a place you'd probably be more comfortable in than I, perhaps. Anyway, it was great to be there, but they were asking me: “Does the minister understand the impact the cuts are having on that very voluntary sector in our communities that shows up at all of the sporting events to make sure we're all safe, and if we fall down or get sick, we're looked after?”

I'd like to ask the minister, because this has several factors to it, do you believe that the process followed by the government in identifying the savings announced on September 25 respects the accord between the Government of Canada and the voluntary sector signed in December 2001, and is in keeping with section 5.2.3 of the code of good practice on funding, which calls on the government to solicit and consider voluntary sector views on better ways to meet funding needs and facilitate long-term planning in the voluntary sector?

[Diane Finley, Conservative, Haldimand—Norfolk, ON]

We obviously recognize the fact that the voluntary sector contributes over 8.5% of our GDP. That's something really very special. As an MP, like you, I'm there every weekend. I spend 95% of my time at functions organized by the voluntary sector. In fact, my department deals on a daily basis—daily, weekly, monthly—over the course of the year with over 20,000 different NGOs. They deliver many of our programs--some on their own, some in partnerships, some through our funding. That's why we recognize the value they contribute.

With respect to funding practices, the Government of Canada did establish the blue ribbon panel to streamline the administration of grants and contributions, and that panel has been receiving feedback from within both the government and the community, particularly the not-for-profit sector, on issues that touch on how to develop a more streamlined and efficient grants and contributions program. We are dealing with them. We are hearing—

[Tony Martin, NDP, Sault Ste. Marie, ON]

I'm glad you raised the blue ribbon panel, because I've been trying to figure out what vehicle you used to evaluate and to decide what was fat and what was inefficient. It seems to me that maybe you held up the blue ribbon panel and the red ribbon panel and the orange ribbon panel, and the orange and the red just disappeared and all of the blue stayed.

Was this—

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Mr. Martin, that's all the time we have. Maybe we'll be able to catch you—

[Tony Martin, NDP, Sault Ste. Marie, ON]

Can I just make one short comment?

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Sure, but very short.

[Tony Martin, NDP, Sault Ste. Marie, ON]

In the voluntary sector that you spoke so highly of, there are 161,000 non-profit agencies across this country, and a big chunk of them will be axed as part of the $200 million and the $1 billion in cuts you made just a couple of weeks ago. That's shocking, and should bother you to a point where you'd want to go back and actually use an efficiency model of some sort and return some of those cuts you've made.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Thank you again, Mr. Martin.

We're going to move to the last individual of this round. Mr. Brown, you may have five minutes, please.

[Patrick Brown, Conservative, Barrie, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Allison.

Minister Finley, thank you for coming before our committee today and certainly for the stellar job you are doing as minister in a very diverse and large portfolio. It's certainly appreciated by this member.

I'd like to ask you a question with respect to your recent initiatives on older workers. I'm sure you're very well aware of the many opportunities and challenges that exist with Canada's aging population. Right now the statistic I've heard is that one out of eight Canadians is over the age of 65, and in less than 25 years that statistic is going to be one out of five. In a mere 37 years, when Mr. Storseth and I fall into that category, I'm sure it's going to be even larger.

But as Mr. Storseth pointed out to this committee earlier today, Canada is facing a growing shortage of skilled workers. And clearly, as Canada begins facing the labour shortages, we cannot afford to lose that experience of the human capital of older workers, especially those older workers who are left jobless because of industry downturns or are in some communities where jobs are harder to find, because of higher unemployment or because they are reliant on a single employer or a single industry.

Nevertheless, we need to ensure that these workers remain in the labour market and can keep on making an important contribution to their communities.

Minister, can you explain the recently announced targeted initiative for older workers and how it will help achieve these objectives?

[Diane Finley, Conservative, Haldimand—Norfolk, ON]

Thank you very much for the question. You're absolutely right; we do have these shortages.

We also have too many individuals who are between the ages of 55 and 64 years, who live in communities that are perhaps a one-industry or a one-employer town, and who because of our global economy and other factors are finding themselves suddenly and unexpectedly out of work.

That's unfortunate, and we believe we need to help these people, because they still have a lot to contribute, frankly. We know that from an economic point of view, if they can be employed, that's a good thing. It's good for the country; it's good for them. But even from a health point of view people are better off when they have high self-esteem, when they're working.

That's why we brought in the older workers program, which is a two-year program, to be worked in conjunction with the provinces that choose to sign on, to help suddenly displaced older workers not only develop skills to help them find jobs—and frankly, many of them have never had to look for a job, because they've been with that company for 30 years—but also to help them develop new skills and work experience so that they can find other jobs. We want this program to be run in conjunction with economic development projects in the area.

We're seeing significant examples in Newfoundland at the moment, where while some fish plants are closing other opportunities are being created. While a lot of the people who are being displaced aren't highly skilled, they can be retrained for these new job opportunities.

We're looking forward to working with each of the provinces on this exciting new initiative.

[Patrick Brown, Conservative, Barrie, ON]

Thank you.

On another note affecting older Canadians, I understand that many of our neediest seniors are missing out on the federal income support to which they are entitled, specifically the guaranteed income supplement. In my own riding I've heard of seniors who are not getting the benefit because they don't know about it and haven't applied for it.

Minister, could you tell us what proactive measures the government is taking to inform seniors like the residents I have in my case in Barrie, to let them know and to inform them about the benefits to which they are entitled?

[Diane Finley, Conservative, Haldimand—Norfolk, ON]

There is quite a wide range of ways we try to make sure we're getting the benefits to everybody who qualifies for them.

A number of things have happened in the last little while. One is that through our expansion of Service Canada and the number of points of service we're doing a lot of outreach. Particularly in distant communities, where people may not be aware of it, our Service Canada people are going in and seeing anyone who is a senior to see if they're eligible.

Four times a year we send out notices saying please file your income tax—please—or if you haven't done so, fill in the forms to see if you're eligible.

We're also actively looking at new technologies and working with other departments and indeed with provinces and territories so that we can share information on a proactive basis as to who might be eligible to make sure people get signed up in the first place.

And by the way, if any of the members here are aware of anyone who isn't receiving the guaranteed income supplement and should, please let my office know right away.

[Patrick Brown, Conservative, Barrie, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

That's all the time we have. We're going to move to the next round.

Mr. D'Amours.

[Jean-Claude D'Amours, Liberal, Madawaska—Restigouche, NB]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Madam Minister, I am going to concentrate on only one question. At the end of the day, the answer you are going to give me will also be for the students in my riding.

I hope that you are aware of the fact that you made cuts to the Summer Career Placements Program. In my riding, 344 young people found a job last summer because of this program. This represents a total of $533,000, which was spent to help organizations and companies in my riding. These young people did 113,000 hours of work in the Madawaska—Restigouche riding.

You mentioned that when all is said and done, some regions don't need student jobs, because they will be created in any event. But what are you going to say to the 170 to 200 young people who next summer will perhaps not have a student job because the program has been cut? What do you say to the non-profit organizations that need this funding? What do you say to the Edmundston Jazz & Blues Festival, which definitely needs funding to continue? And what do you say to the Jeux de l'Acadie, which were held this year in my riding in Campbellton? Is it because francophone organizations have been targeted by your cuts?

Rural regions genuinely need the Summer Career Placements Program. Do you understand concretely what you are in the process of doing? Are your comments about needing to cut the fat still accurate? Does cutting the fat mean cutting programs for students, who are those in society who need these programs the most in order to be able to continue with their post-secondary education?

[Diane Finley, Conservative, Haldimand—Norfolk, ON]

As I mentioned earlier, I come from a rural area myself. I'm familiar with the Edmundston area. Yes, those are the kinds of places that we will be helping, because there are challenges for youth in getting summer jobs. But when it's a retail employer in downtown Calgary, then no, we don't believe the money should go there. So the money is going to be spent on helping students in areas where it's tougher to get a job, in rural areas like yours or mine, areas where there are high levels of crime, or areas where there may be other challenges.

[Jean-Claude D'Amours, Liberal, Madawaska—Restigouche, NB]

Madam Minister, when you made the cuts a few weeks ago, did you mention which organizations would be affected by them? Did you mention that a number of jobs would be eliminated in my riding of Madawaska—Restigouche? Never, because you cannot confirm that no jobs will be lost in my riding.

At the moment, 344 young people have an opportunity to advance. There should be 1,000 student jobs in my riding, but that is not the case, Madam Minister.

I therefore believe that it is a serious problem, and that you have sent a negative message to the population, to students and to non-profit organizations.

I would now like to know whether you always wait until the last minute—one or two days before the deadline—to renew the employment insurance pilot projects.

Is your government in favour of eliminating weeks of waiting for unemployment insurance? That's an easy question, Madam Minister. Please reply with a yes or a no.

[Diane Finley, Conservative, Haldimand—Norfolk, ON]

I'm sorry, there were about three questions there. I'd like to deal with the first one first.

We are preserving. We'll be going forward with $45 million to help employ summer students this year.

[Jean-Claude D'Amours, Liberal, Madawaska—Restigouche, NB]

Madam Minister, it's a comment I made to you earlier. I would like you to answer my question about eliminating weeks of waiting. Is your government in favour or not of eliminating weeks of waiting for employment insurance?

Yes or no?

[Diane Finley, Conservative, Haldimand—Norfolk, ON]

There is a waiting period. It's because there is an obligation on employers to provide—

[Jean-Claude D'Amours, Liberal, Madawaska—Restigouche, NB]

So your answer is no? You don't want to say yes.