Evidence of meeting #41 for Human Resources, Skills and Social Development and the Status of Persons with Disabilities in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was workers.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

11:50 a.m.

Bloc

Richard Nadeau Bloc Gatineau, QC

We need to protect both the workers and the management. I'm being told that in the case of a strike, we should allow plants to literally relocate for a period of time or to increase their production elsewhere, rather than settle the conflict. Unfortunately, that's what big companies do.

What we want is legislation that respects community members, both employers and workers, and that proposes a solution to foster labour peace when there is a labour dispute. The temporary relocation of production in case of dispute is quite disrespectful to all those involved, namely the workers.

11:50 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Dean Allison

Thank you very much.

Madame Lavallée.

11:50 a.m.

Bloc

Carole Lavallée Bloc Saint-Bruno—Saint-Hubert, QC

Thank you very much, Mr. Nadeau, for your appearance here this morning. We are very sorry for the interruption and we hope it will not happen again.

First off, I wanted to discuss these studies. Reference was made to the Fraser Institute and the Institut économique de Montréal. As we all know, these are essentially the same authors who have been saying the same things for years. What is surprising, when you look into it—and I took the time to read the studies—is that this is old data dating from the 1960s and to the mid 1990s. I can't recall the exact dates, but it would be nice if you refreshed our memory on this.

Not only are these studies based on old data, but they were done with large companies in Quebec, despite the fact that we know that small and medium enterprises are the driving force behind the Quebec economy. Also, they refer to the number of labour disputes, when, if you really wanted statistics, in order to compare similar things, you would not be comparing data for a province which has this type of legislation to that of another which does not. You would also not be comparing the duration or the number of labour disputes. The real statistics would be the number of days of work lost in a province such as Quebec or British Columbia, and the number of workers governed by the Canadian Labour Code and the provincial labour code. In Quebec, this is something we know very well.

I'd like you to refresh our memory on that.

Now, my main question has to do with respect for labour and management. We know that anti-scab legislation creates a proper balance between employers and employees, particularly during negotiations, but afterwards as well, as surprising as it may seem. We also know that the idea of having replacement workers makes no sense. In fact, there are countries which do not have anti-scab legislation because companies have never even considered replacing strikers or employees during a dispute. It simply does not exist. They don't replace the workers and that is how they strike a balance.

I'd like to get back to Mr. Regan's question. The city of Bonaventure in the Gaspé is a good example of why it is senseless to accept replacement workers. There was a dispute which lasted three years at the Bonaventure radio station. It was a small company. After two years, the 12 replacement workers asked for union accreditation. Obviously, they were denied, but it shows how senseless it would be to allow for replacement workers in a company when it can lead to such odd outcomes.

Mr. Nadeau, I want to remind you of my question, because my comments were somewhat long. I'm very sorry about that. Can you tell me exactly how you think anti-scab legislation can help to create a balance in the labour-management relationship?

11:55 a.m.

Bloc

Richard Nadeau Bloc Gatineau, QC

Yes, it is true that the only difference between the documents from the Fraser Institute and those from the Montreal Economic Institute is the language in which they are written, since the data come from the same source.

Both institutes quote a study that, for example, ran from 1967 to 1993, and they treat it as a panacea. They quote another study done by J. Budd in 1996, whose data cover 1966 to 1985. And finally, they quote M. Gunderson and A. Melino who wrote a paper in 1990 using data from 1967 to 1985. That is also a major reference point for the institute, but it is rather sad to see. Moreover, the data relate only to large corporations and say nothing about the small and medium-sized businesses.

The trouble with these studies is that, at the same time, the departments of labour have a duty to their citizens. I am referring to Quebec and British Columbia, which provide specific data almost to the year. These provinces provide data on an annual basis. The situated is looked at properly, with data for the entire labour force. A worker is no less important because he is employed by a small business rather than by a multinational corporation. This has to be understood; it's essential. We must not lose sight of the individual.

As to the respect that can flow from anti-scab legislation, everyone has to play by the same rules. As I told Mr. Regan earlier, when an employer is no longer turning a profit and the employees are not being paid, they negotiate to find solutions that everyone can live with and try to make the strike or work stoppage as short as possible.

Think of the consequences when scabs cross the picket line. It leads to violence, and you can imagine what happens once the strike is over! When I say violence, I don't only mean a punch on the nose; it can also lead to psychological violence or trauma. The employees know that the plant is still operating and people are making money doing their job while they are negotiating to get back to work. It makes no sense. It is reminiscent of old-time unbridled capitalism.

And we must not forget what will happen once the strike or lockout is over. If the replacement worker is a well-known member of the community, a brother, a neighbour, an old friend or even an acquaintance, then imagine the bad blood and the poisoned atmosphere in the plant, particularly if it is located in a small community.

Once a strike has ended, replacement workers can find themselves embroiled in litigation. That is another serious consequence. The union charges management, which can find itself in a sticky situation. If you throw into the mix goons who are not permanent employees but whose behaviour gets out of hand, then all of these people may find themselves facing the long arm of the law.

All things considered, I would say that, at the end of the day, anti-scab legislation would provide the community with a certain level of social harmony during negotiations, when the dispute gets tough, regardless of whether the employees are covered by the Canada Labour Code or by a provincial labour code. We must not forget that this involves their bread and butter.

So I would encourage you not to quote the Montreal Institute or the Fraser Institute in a classroom, because it would be a breach of ethics. Use the governments' official numbers instead, since they are applying the legislation in this area.

Noon

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Dean Allison

Madame Davies.

Noon

NDP

Libby Davies NDP Vancouver East, BC

Thank you very much.

First of all, to Monsieur Nadeau, thank you very much for coming today. It's a pleasure to have you here.

This is a very important bill. Thank you for putting it forward in the House of Commons. It received a very significant vote, so I feel there's a responsibility and a weight to the work we are taking on here, because a significant number of members of Parliament have supported this bill in principle, and we're now here to look at the details.

You have characterized your bill as creating a level playing field and a fair situation. I would certainly agree with you on that. When workers go on strike legally, it's not an easy decision, and the worst thing that can happen is when strikebreakers or replacement workers are brought in. The conflict, the violence, the upset that can create for individual workers and the union members as a whole is something we have seen over the years when we haven't had this legislation. So I very much see this legislation, if it were approved, as a preventative measure, as something that produces stability.

Being from British Columbia, where we've had similar legislation in place for a number of years, I would say we have seen greater stability. Where we've seen ongoing problems has been in the federal jurisdiction, whether it's the Telus workers or the CBC lockout, where, because they were federally regulated, they didn't have any protection.

The purpose of this bill is to provide very important measures to protect the rights of workers and ensure a level playing field.

I wonder if you have any information about what has happened in other industrialized countries. I assume Canada is not alone in this idea of dealing with replacement workers. Most other industrialized countries would have similar provisions to this. I wonder if you could speak to that.

Secondly, in the background notes there was a reference to one particular section that apparently is causing some confusion, that's section 94(2.4), where it's not clear what that section is referring to. So I was just wondering if you are able to clarify what the purpose of that particular section is and whether or not--it's the section that refers to the use of managerial employees, and it's not clear what other section you're referring to. So could you clarify that?

Noon

Bloc

Richard Nadeau Bloc Gatineau, QC

Thank you very much, Ms. Davies.

The bill was adopted in 1993 in British Columbia. During the following year, there were 50% fewer labour disputes than in the previous year. That shows that the legislation did have an effect.

I have not taken a close look at the situation in other countries. One thing is clear, and that is that anti-scab legislation does lead to respect between employers and employees in a labour dispute. There has been anti-scab legislation in Quebec for almost 29 years now. You might remember some labour unrest, for example, the strike at Robin Hood Mills in Montreal, where shots were fired. The strikers were not happy. So they brought in a gun and tried to settle the problem like they used to do in the Wild West. People are injured and sometimes killed because the employer has no respect for the bargaining process.

And there is another matter to consider. In Quebec, about 40% of workers are unionized, while in the United States, the figure is only 13%. Unionization is a preference here. Unionized workers even told me that some employers, for example the IGA supermarket chain, encourage their employees to form a union to ensure good labour relations and fair bargaining practices. Under those conditions, when a strike occurs, both parties already respect one another. That was not the case before 1978, when unionization was frowned upon.

Some European countries could not even fathom the possibility of adopting anti-scab legislation because they could never imagine having to resort to the use of replacement workers. I am referring to the entire continent, as I have never really taken a close look at the situation there.

Mr. Regan also alluded to another important fact when he mentioned the report that was published following the review of Part I of the Canada Labour Code. In the minority report that was drafted by none other than Rodrigue Blouin—a world renowned specialist in labour relations who himself arbitrates labour disputes in Quebec and elsewhere—clearly demonstrates the importance of not using replacement workers. The use of outside workers undermines the situation and leads to problems in the bargaining process.

In Quebec, employees who are protected by the Canada Labour Code—and they represent about 8% of workers—are employed in communications, postal services, correctional services, transportation, pulp and paper, ports and airports. When we look at labour disputes that have occurred in these sectors, we see that they were longer and sometimes—and this can be shown—very violent. In cases such as those, it is clear that anti-scab legislation is essential.

Some solutions have been brought forward. For example, when a dispute occurs, some services are considered to be essential. That means that these services must be maintained for the protection of the public, depending on what professional group is involved.

To protect the employer's property, we recognize that there may be workers on site during the strike. But they are there to maintain equipment and not to ensure production. This is allowed when necessary and proof of that is required.

So steps are taken to protect equipment. The aim is not to destroy the owner or the company or the employer; it is to ensure that both parties can negotiate under the best conditions.

The aim of this approach, which is found in new subsections 94(2.1) and the following provisions of the bill is to cover all the angles. In some cases, the employer may even refuse to have an employee come back, if there is evidence that this employee engaged in wrong doing, and ensure that this individual does not return to work.

Both sides need to be respected. When we consider these aspects—I have provided you with a copy of the bill—it is always with regard to ensuring that both partners involved in the negotiations are respected.

12:10 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Dean Allison

Thank you, Mr. Nadeau.

Mr. Lake, seven minutes, please.

12:10 p.m.

Conservative

Mike Lake Conservative Edmonton—Mill Woods—Beaumont, AB

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Mr. Nadeau.

The first question I have is regarding the duration of strikes. One of the concerns I have—and I've looked at this process all the way through—is that the numbers seem incredibly inconsistent.

You said that strikes last twice as long under Canadian jurisdiction, and you said that you had “very clear solid data”. I'd like to know exactly where that information comes from.

12:10 p.m.

Bloc

Richard Nadeau Bloc Gatineau, QC

This comes from the Quebec Department of Labour, which is a provincial entity, and which must report to the National Assembly, among others things, on employer-employee relations.

12:10 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Dean Allison

Could I ask that that information be tabled with the committee, when you have a second? It doesn't have to be tabled right now, but maybe afterwards. Thanks.

12:10 p.m.

Bloc

Richard Nadeau Bloc Gatineau, QC

Yes.

12:10 p.m.

Conservative

Mike Lake Conservative Edmonton—Mill Woods—Beaumont, AB

The data from the labour program, the workplace information directorate--I guess this would be Human Resources and Social Development Canada--talks about “The average duration of work stoppages under the Canada Labour Code is lower than in the province of Quebec:” 43.5 days from 2002 to 2005, on average, under the Canada Labour Code, 46.6 days in Quebec. Can you explain the difference between your information and what the federal government says?

12:10 p.m.

Bloc

Richard Nadeau Bloc Gatineau, QC

I have a very simple answer for you, Mr. Lake. I could have continued to read Mr. Rodrigue Blouin's minority report but two things need to be considered.

Out of all the statistics, I would trust above all those provided by the departments of labour, rather than those from agencies or studies based on data published here and there in magazines, or by institutes that, at first, are more sympathetic to the unions or to the employers. This is extremely important.

More importantly, this goes beyond statistics, is that it is essential to ensure respect during collective bargaining. In order to do this, it is essential that employers and workers negotiate from equivalent, similar positions. So, the company cannot continue to turn a profit while its employees are on strike: this would be unfair. If one side is not making money, neither should the other side.

Therefore, it is against the law to allow people into a plant who would ensure that the plant turned a profit while the workers no longer have any income to feed their families, all because replacement workers are being allowed to enter the plant. This, above all else, is fundamental.

The statistical data that I have been provided by the government of Quebec come from Quebec sectors—

12:10 p.m.

Conservative

Mike Lake Conservative Edmonton—Mill Woods—Beaumont, AB

Excuse me. I want to make sure that I have time to ask the questions I want, and I think we're off on a different answer now.

Ms. Davies referred to conflict and violence. You also mentioned conflict and violence. I've heard it mentioned by a few labour leaders who have phoned my office as well now. I have a lot of friends who are members of unions, and I would not characterize any of them as being violent individuals. I can't see any of them being violent in a situation with a strike or a lockout.

I'm just curious as to how you feel about this constant talk of conflict and violence and whether you think violence is ever justified in a legal strike or lockout situation, even with replacement workers? Yes or no.

12:15 p.m.

Bloc

Richard Nadeau Bloc Gatineau, QC

Having replacement workers constitutes a form of violence. Violence of any kind is unacceptable. We must not allow violence under any pretext, be it from the employer side or the union side. This is unacceptable.

Now, if we cheat by allowing replacement workers in a small plant while the employers are on a picket line, this is a form of violence. It may be psychological, but if the situation continues, it may turn into physical violence. This is extremely unfortunate and we must not allow this to happen.

12:15 p.m.

Conservative

Mike Lake Conservative Edmonton—Mill Woods—Beaumont, AB

It was a little longer than yes or no, but that's good.

Now, I do want to make a point. You said that if one party isn't making any money then the other party can't be making any money either. Realistically, an employee can go make money to subsidize their income, to support their family, and rightfully so. Obviously, they have to be able to do that in a strike or a lockout situation, have the freedom to do that.

The employer, under this legislation, wouldn't have that same alternative, so I take issue. You make the comment there, but I think you're implying that you would take away the rights of workers to actually go out and get employment by making that statement.

12:15 p.m.

Bloc

Richard Nadeau Bloc Gatineau, QC

Unfortunately, employers may choose to open a plant at another location. They may move their production elsewhere for a period of time. This is unfortunate. Such action should be considered in context. All employees who are on strike do not find alternative employment overnight. Let's not kid ourselves.

12:15 p.m.

Conservative

Mike Lake Conservative Edmonton—Mill Woods—Beaumont, AB

No, no. I never said that. I said they have the freedom to do that. They have the freedom to find an alternative—

12:15 p.m.

Bloc

Richard Nadeau Bloc Gatineau, QC

In fact, such situations may occur but they are more the exception than the rule.

12:15 p.m.

Conservative

Mike Lake Conservative Edmonton—Mill Woods—Beaumont, AB

This is a really important question for me to understand. If a major telecommunications company could not operate because of the prohibition on the use of replacement workers, what do you think will happen to emergency 911 service?

12:15 p.m.

Bloc

Richard Nadeau Bloc Gatineau, QC

That's an excellent question, Mr. Lake.

That bill refers to emergency measures and essential services that need to be maintained. This is similar to a hospital, where essential services must be maintained. Quebec is one such example.

12:15 p.m.

Conservative

Mike Lake Conservative Edmonton—Mill Woods—Beaumont, AB

I want to clarify. That's section 87.4 of the Labour Code?

12:15 p.m.

Bloc

Richard Nadeau Bloc Gatineau, QC

Yes.

You will see references to essential services that need to be maintained in the documents that I have provided. Furthermore, reference is also made to this in the summary written by the committee.

12:15 p.m.

Conservative

Mike Lake Conservative Edmonton—Mill Woods—Beaumont, AB

Okay. The CIRB has ruled that telecommunication services are not essential within the meaning of section 87.4 of the Labour Code, so therefore the provisions of your bill with reference to this section will not ensure emergency 911 service is maintained.

Will you be prepared to expand the meaning of essential services that's currently contained in the code to ensure that other services, such as 911, are maintained in the event of a strike or lockout?