Evidence of meeting #74 for Human Resources, Skills and Social Development and the Status of Persons with Disabilities in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was chairman.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

May 15th, 2007 / 4:10 p.m.

Bloc

Carole Lavallée Bloc Saint-Bruno—Saint-Hubert, QC

Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

Good afternoon, ministers.

First I would like to tell you how disappointed I am to see you here together. I do not understand why you did this. Your government has boasted about being transparent and being willing to answer questions. Yet it has become evident in all the committees, and in may ways, how far you will go to hide, including during an information meeting like this one, where we have two ministers in two hours rather than having each one for two hours. There has been discussion about day cares and summer jobs. I want to talk to you about bankruptcies. You can see that this makes no sense.

That being said, I am also disappointed about the paragraph on the Wage Earner Protection Program Act, spoken by the Minister of Labour. I am disappointed but also a bit fed up. This was Bill C-55, that was tabled in the House in May 2005 and that contained two parts. First, it overhauled the Bankruptcy Act, and second, it provided for an assistance program, wage protection for workers in the event that their employers went bankrupt. The bill was not perfect but it was so satisfactory and so counted on that in November 2005—I believe it was the 25th of November—all parties in the House passed it unanimously. This was just before the 2005 election campaign. The bill was also passed quickly in the Senate, through the fast-track procedure.

When your government was elected in January 2006 you said that there were some technical problems that had to be resolved. We said that was fine, that we understood. It took approximately one year to resolve those technical problems, especially with respect to the overhaul of the Bankruptcy Act. To the Minister of Labour, you tabled this bill last December. In fact, you tabled a ways and means motion on the 8th of December last. That was five months ago. Now you're telling us: "I urge the members of your political parties to move forward in reaching consensus on these amendments."

Minister, that is not how one proceeds with a bill. If you want us to discuss your bill, then put it on the table, let's give it consideration, let us vote on it at second reading, refer it to committee, and make the necessary changes. The change that is difficult, at least for the Bloc Québécois but also for other political parties, is the one involving a clause in the Bankruptcy Act that states that RRSPs will be liable to seizure, which runs counter to the Quebec Civil Code, that states that RRSPs are not liable to seizure. Minister, I think that you have to compromise on this point because you stated that the purpose of this is to protect RRSPs, to prevent someone from putting too much money in RRSPs knowing that they will be bankrupt the next day. Your legislation already has a provision stating that you're not allowed to do that. Therefore, an individual's RRSPs would become liable to seizure, if it could be shown—and it's often easy to do this—that this step was taken in order to protect some money during an eventual bankruptcy.

Minister, when are you going to table this bill?

4:15 p.m.

Conservative

Jean-Pierre Blackburn Conservative Jonquière—Alma, QC

Madam, we have in fact had several opportunities to discuss this issue. You have also put questions to me on this issue in the House of Commons and I have always answered your questions. Thus, allow me to recall, for those who are listening to us, the circumstances.

During the last Parliament, before we came to the House of Commons, there was a unanimous motion on the part of members of Parliament requesting that this bill be put forward in order to protect the wages of workers in cases where a business—

4:15 p.m.

Bloc

Carole Lavallée Bloc Saint-Bruno—Saint-Hubert, QC

My time, as you know, is limited. I probably only have three minutes left out of the seven that I was given. I have already explained all of this, I gave the background. Now I would like you to answer my question. When will you table this bill in the House? If your answer is that you will never do so, then tell me why and we can move on to something else.

4:15 p.m.

Conservative

Jean-Pierre Blackburn Conservative Jonquière—Alma, QC

Even if you start over 20 times, Madam, I am still going to say what I have to say. I am telling you that this legislation was voted on in the House of Commons for the purposes of protecting the wages of employees in cases where businesses went bankrupt.

4:15 p.m.

Bloc

Carole Lavallée Bloc Saint-Bruno—Saint-Hubert, QC

I said that.

4:15 p.m.

Conservative

Jean-Pierre Blackburn Conservative Jonquière—Alma, QC

When we became the government, we had to take on this responsibility that had been unanimously decided on by the House of Commons.

4:15 p.m.

Bloc

Carole Lavallée Bloc Saint-Bruno—Saint-Hubert, QC

I also said that.

4:15 p.m.

Conservative

Jean-Pierre Blackburn Conservative Jonquière—Alma, QC

That is what we did. We prepared the bill, which consists in technical changes.

4:15 p.m.

Bloc

Carole Lavallée Bloc Saint-Bruno—Saint-Hubert, QC

I also said that.

4:15 p.m.

Conservative

Jean-Pierre Blackburn Conservative Jonquière—Alma, QC

Those changes deal with the Department of Labour and Department of Industry. We also tabled a ways and means motion.

4:15 p.m.

Bloc

Carole Lavallée Bloc Saint-Bruno—Saint-Hubert, QC

I said that as well. That was on the 8th of December—

4:15 p.m.

Conservative

Jean-Pierre Blackburn Conservative Jonquière—Alma, QC

There was an agreement amongst all the parties to the effect that this would be tabled at first, second and third reading, through the fast-track procedure, precisely in order to refer the bill to the Senate for the purposes of further consideration, given that the bill consisted of technical changes.

4:15 p.m.

Bloc

Carole Lavallée Bloc Saint-Bruno—Saint-Hubert, QC

I'll stop you now.

4:15 p.m.

Conservative

Jean-Pierre Blackburn Conservative Jonquière—Alma, QC

That was our agreement.

4:15 p.m.

Bloc

Carole Lavallée Bloc Saint-Bruno—Saint-Hubert, QC

No, not at all.

4:15 p.m.

Conservative

Jean-Pierre Blackburn Conservative Jonquière—Alma, QC

I realize that you're not happy with that, but that is the agreement we had.

4:15 p.m.

Bloc

Carole Lavallée Bloc Saint-Bruno—Saint-Hubert, QC

Minister, I have always told you that it made no sense to refer our work to Senate. It made no sense. The Senate makes changes and amendments and then returns it to the House. That makes no sense. I don't know why you think you can use that procedure.

Why do you not follow normal procedure? All the ministers, including your colleague, table bills in the House, and we then consider those bills. Regardless, we all want this bill. That is true. We are correct in saying that we all want it, but we don't want it in any old way and we don't want our work to be done by the Senate.

4:15 p.m.

Conservative

Jean-Pierre Blackburn Conservative Jonquière—Alma, QC

The public must know what your amendment is. You would like a business, 10 minutes before it declares bankruptcy, to be able to put $100,000 in an RRSP and for that money to be protected from seizure, when that money belongs to other individuals.

4:15 p.m.

Bloc

Carole Lavallée Bloc Saint-Bruno—Saint-Hubert, QC

That's impossible, Minister.

4:15 p.m.

Conservative

Jean-Pierre Blackburn Conservative Jonquière—Alma, QC

And that amendment, you know—

4:15 p.m.

Bloc

Carole Lavallée Bloc Saint-Bruno—Saint-Hubert, QC

This isn't possible.

4:15 p.m.

Conservative

Jean-Pierre Blackburn Conservative Jonquière—Alma, QC

You know that the Minister of Industry was very clear—

4:15 p.m.

Bloc

Carole Lavallée Bloc Saint-Bruno—Saint-Hubert, QC

I'm sorry, Minister, but this is my time.

4:15 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Dean Allison

You have one minute left.

4:15 p.m.

Bloc

Carole Lavallée Bloc Saint-Bruno—Saint-Hubert, QC

It is impossible for a business to put $100,000 into an RRSP. First, a business cannot use RRSPs. Furthermore, you can't put $100,000 into an RRSP. There is a limit that I am not particularly familiar with, but it's somewhere between $10,000 and $20,000. So that is false on two counts. Why won't you table your bill in the House? We can follow normal procedure. If you had done this on December 8, it would have been changed, amended and passed.