Human Resources Committee on May 11th, 2009

[Andrew Waugh]

Certainly there are jurisdictional issues. I think it's ironic that the federal government has seen fit to establish conditions with respect to the health transfer. The federal government seems to have a few problems saying we want to see accessibility, portability, universality, the conditions--

[Ed Komarnicki, Conservative, Souris—Moose Mountain, SK]

When you actually look at the Canada Health Act, and in the five bases that you specify, they are very general in terms, and you don't see a lot of federal-provincial court battles as to how they're carrying it out. It's pretty loose in that sense, wouldn't you agree?

[Andrew Waugh]

Certainly, but I would contrast that with the social transfer, which imposes zero conditions, other than the one I mentioned, which is the prerequisite that there be no prerequisite for minimum residency requirements with respect to social assistance.

I do think there's a lack of federal will with respect to establishing conditions surrounding the social transfer on social assistance. With respect to the idea that provinces are going to be concerned with the federal government meddling with their jurisdiction, I think it's important to remember that the conditions I was speaking about are not conditions that Ottawa has just dreamed up and is then dictating to the provinces. These are conditions that 160 other countries have all said, “We're willing to adhere to these; these are rights that we all recognize as important, and these are obligations that we are going to try to live up to.” These are worldwide shared values, and I don't think they're originating in Ottawa and then being delegated to the provinces.

[Ed Komarnicki, Conservative, Souris—Moose Mountain, SK]

Of course, Canada has its own peculiar provincial-federal legislation and jurisdiction. We talk about the Canada social transfer. In fact, it's been increasing every year, and it is scheduled to be increasing fairly significantly, but the question is, how do you direct the provinces to use that? So far a lot of the times for housing, for instance, you have housing agreements that go over multitudes of years and it's fine-tuning through negotiation. Isn't that what needs to happen, collaboration at a very intricate level?

[Andrew Waugh]

Absolutely. You're correct in saying obviously the social transfer is increasing, but again there's no guidance from the federal government as to what they expect the provinces to provide with respect to social assistance gains. You can see that by the wide variance in the different schemes across the country. I can only speak specifically to Nova Scotia, but I can certainly tell you that social assistance rates here are manifestly inadequate, and there's no direction from the federal government with respect to what the province could be doing to ensure adequacy of social assistance rates here.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Okay. Thank you very much.

We're now going to move to the second round, which will be five minutes for questions and answers.

Mr. Savage.

[Michael Savage, Liberal, Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS]

Thank you, Chair.

At these committees we try not to get into partisan issues. This committee is pretty good at that. I usually save mine for late-night debates with Mr. Komarnicki in the House of Commons, and he gives as good as he gets.

I want to talk a little bit about the social transfer. Rene, I think you mentioned an increase.

Some of the organizations that have long been advocating for significant investments in social infrastructure organizations, like the CCPA, the Caledon Institute, and CCSD, have talked about the social transfer. Back in the 1990s the government of the day bundled the social transfer, health, and social services. We took health out back in 2004.

I think there's somebody here from the CCPA in the audience.

I think one of the things in the alternate budget was $2 billion for investment in the social transfer--Nova Scotia, for example. Ed's right that we've been putting a little bit more money into the social transfer, but I don't think it's a matter of incrementally adjusting that. It's a matter of redoing it and making it significant. In Nova Scotia we've seen $4-a-month increases in social assistance. What is that item? That doesn't make any difference. That's just an increase for the sake of saying it's an increase.

The other thing I wanted to say is there's a preference, and I'll leave it to you. We have great inequities in equalities province to province. Some provinces do much better in a lot of different things. But certainly on the social assistance side, the Province of Quebec has invested in providing more access of opportunity in a number of ways.

I'd like to ask you--perhaps, Rene, starting with you--to just expand a bit on the idea of an increase in the social transfer. It may be an unfair question. Do you have any sense of what it would take in Nova Scotia, for example? Do you have a specific number in mind? Or, more generally, how would we maximize the social transfer from the federal government to the provinces? That's what we're trying to do in this committee, to come up with recommendations for the federal government.

[Rene Ross]

When everything was split up and we became reliant on the Canadian social transfer, everything changed, and income assistance rates dropped. If we were to look back, things started to get worse and really take a sharp turn with the elimination of the health transfer and the Canada social transfer. We know that it needs to be increased significantly.

To be completely honest, it's been a couple of months since I've looked at the exact numbers for the CST. The provincial budget has just come out, we're in an election, and we don't really know what's going on. There have been a lot of updates and changes in what's going on with the federal and provincial governments and their agreement.

I want to go back to what Ed was saying earlier about measurements and what to do in jurisdictions, etc. I'm also the co-author of the Nova Scotia child poverty report card. We've been spending a lot of time debating what measurements to use. Should it be the LICO or the market basket measure? Should this be only for Nova Scotia or all of Canada?

I believe it's a combination of the LICO and the market basket. The market basket will be able to make it very provincially specific. Not only does poverty look very different here compared to Nunavut; it looks very different here compared to my home town of Springhill, Nova Scotia. There are many different challenges depending on where you live. For instance, shelter rates are not as high in my home town, but if you take sick, you'll need to find the money to go to the next hospital in Amherst that's going to be able to do anything for you. These are real challenges facing people living in poverty.

There needs to be some kind of measurement that's just not cut and dried for the entire country. We really need to look at challenges that are provincially specific. When we talk about transfers and the CST, we can't point the finger at the federal government and say they're not doing enough, and go to the provincial government and say they're not doing enough. As Ed said, we really need to collaborate and to stop wheeling and dealing with people living in poverty.

The CST needs to be increased. We need to have transfers from the federal government that will provide immediate relief. Bringing both of these to the table, trying our best to leave politics at home, and collaborating in a very positive way--keeping in mind the challenges provincially for each jurisdiction--are very important and key.

I don't have an exact number, but I do know that the CST needs serious and significant adjustment. It's one little sliver of the income we need to make changes for people living in poverty.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Thank you.

Mr. Lobb, you have five minutes.

[Ben Lobb, Conservative, Huron—Bruce, ON]

Thank you.

In virtually every meeting we've had since this committee really started focusing on poverty, the underlying theme I've taken away is the need for affordable housing.

Claudia, you mentioned our most vulnerable and the housing you've provided for them. You mentioned the support side of it. On the housing you provide for those who are most vulnerable, what kind of support do you have? Is it built right into the actual housing facility, or how does that look?

[Claudia Jahn]

I want to clarify first that Community Action on Homelessness doesn't provide direct services; we just administer the housing program. We work with all the service providers here in the city to develop appropriate programs. There's a variety of support services out there. For instance, the Y in Halifax have developed a very successful cost-efficient model. They rent units for women to occupy. They pay the first month's rent and provide three hours of support per week, which is minimum support. There are other models, like the one I mentioned earlier, which will open in a couple of weeks. There will be a full-time support worker on staff. Even the superintendents will have some expertise and will be able to support people if there is some crisis during the night.

There are different levels of support. Sometimes it's really a low level and sometimes it's a high level. For some clients it is one year at a low level. If you're dealing with mental health issues, a person can get into a crisis very quickly. We heard examples from non-profits. For instance, a relative dies and that puts someone into a crisis in a manic or suicidal mode. Then you might need high levels of support. We are talking about different degrees of support services.

[Ben Lobb, Conservative, Huron—Bruce, ON]

Thank you.

To continue on that line, if you were looking at an ideal model for housing, is what you're describing the ideal concept and model to help people get off the street, deal with their issues and take that next step in their life? Is that the model your group would recommend?

[Claudia Jahn]

I think we are now in a position to really frame what is needed since we've started with the homeless, and one former homeless person, Wayne MacNaughton, who is our co-chair on our committee, describes it best. He says what homeless people have in common is only that they are homeless. The rest is that they are individuals dealing with different problems.

So let's look at the numbers here. We looked at 158 individuals here in Halifax, and it's probably the same for other cities. Twenty-five per cent were just evicted. They didn't need any support services, they just needed eviction prevention measures. There are others. Over 60% have mental health issues. Light support systems could be fine for some. Some have very high support needs--this might be 10%. So we really have to look at the individuals to deal with it.

Fortunately, the non-profit sector knows what is needed and they can provide adequate services. We just have to enable them to deliver the programs.

[Ben Lobb, Conservative, Huron—Bruce, ON]

Ms. Ross, you mentioned you are from a rural part of Nova Scotia, and I'm from a more rural part of Ontario. I just wondered if you could give the committee an idea of some of the options you provide for affordable housing in rural Nova Scotia--some that have worked.

[Rene Ross]

Again, there really needs to be more support in rural areas of Nova Scotia. The challenges are equally crucial and critical. Housing, yes, of course, that is an issue in rural Nova Scotia. So is transportation. There is no metro transit in the valley or in Cumberland County. There is a great program that is starting up a bus service right now, running from town to town.

Before I started working at Stepping Stone I worked at the women's centres for a year doing a project where I travelled across the province. I met with 95 women, from Cape Breton down to Yarmouth, about income assistance and ways they wanted to see the system transformed, based on their own realities and their recommendations.

I heard a lot of things in rural Nova Scotia. I heard about the complete lack of supportive programs. I heard about transportation issues. I heard about child care issues. This is also true for Halifax, but it's really severe in rural Nova Scotia. I heard about health care. Poverty encompasses everything. As I said earlier, if I were in Springhill and something happened, I would have to find my way to get transportation to the hospital when the ER is closed at home.

I would again go back to the approach that we need to look at the different challenges that the geography within our province presents, really keep in mind the challenges in the urban cores and the challenges in the rural cores. We need to come up with a strategy that is going to work for all Nova Scotians, because there are a lot of people in rural Nova Scotia right now who are living in poverty, and they feel isolated, secluded. I know women who, because of the strict welfare-to-work policies, are forced into work before they have adequate child care, and they are spending hours upon hours on a bus going from one town to the next town, and they hardly see their children anymore. So I do think all of these issues need to be addressed, especially for people living in poverty in rural areas in Nova Scotia.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

We'll now move back to Madame Beaudin for five minutes.

[Josée Beaudin, Bloc, Saint-Lambert, QC]

Thank you.

Before I was a member of Parliament, I worked for six years for the Centre 1,2,3 GO! in Quebec, that worked on the front lines for early childhood. There was practically never a day when I was not telling myself that if I had more resources I could have done much more.

Do you often tell yourself the same thing? If you had more resources, could you do more than what you are doing now?

[Rene Ross]

We tell each other a lot of things, on a daily basis, about what we could be doing. I think it's important in our line of work to reflect on the successes and all that we have been able to achieve. I will tell you that it's troubling, to say the least, when governments tell us we need to do a better job of balancing the budget. Really? We have 115 clients, a few staff, $150,000 a year. The challenges are growing—not by the year, but by the week. We know that if we had more resources we could do more and we would do more. Right now we are maxing ourselves out, and it is critical that we have the support and political will of the federal government to help us to help everybody. We feel like somebody has taken us by the shoulders on the front lines and is just pushing down on us. The weight just keeps coming down. We're also spending more time running around filling out grants, instead of providing the programs and support that we're capable of. We're running around doing proposals, best practices, and evaluation plans. Of course we need to be accountable, and we are accountable. We're accountable to one another, and we believe that we should be accountable to the taxpayers of Canada—just as we believe the federal and provincial governments should be accountable. But we need to stop running around competing with everybody, filling out an application every other day. We're spending hours on applications for maybe $3,000.

To answer your question, we know we could do more with those resources.

[Josée Beaudin, Bloc, Saint-Lambert, QC]

Nova Scotia just adopted an antipoverty strategy. There is one in Quebec and another one in Newfoundland-Labrador, under which provinces set-up very local partnership initiatives.

Do you think that the federal government should invest in those initiatives and grant them a permanent funding?

[Claudia Jahn]

I would say yes, loud and clear. Our province is not showing leadership in addressing poverty, especially homelessness. The bilateral agreements are rolling out very slowly, as is the new stimulus package of $128 million. This will fill some gaps and will be used for all the things that haven't been done since the national housing strategy was abolished in the nineties. There will be a lot of renovations. There will be affordable housing markets. But there isn't anything for the clients we are talking about—people on social assistance, low-income families, and people already in the shelter system. None of these funds will go deep enough to address this issue. All we are left with is the homelessness partnering strategy—just over $3 million and unchanged for ten years.

We urge the federal government to stay involved, to be the leader, and to set the requirements and the standards for how these programs need to be rolled out. It's important to put a face to the issue. We deal with this on a day-to-day basis, and we have mothers telling us they're okay because they have a little kraft dinner in their cupboards. That's what I'm hearing, and it breaks my heart. I am here in Canada? It's not a question of more reports and talking. It's a question of whether we want to end it, whether we want to be different.

In Europe it's a philosophy. The government is responsible for all the citizens, for seeing that they are healthy, well nourished, and well housed. That comes first. Then we talk about technology, employment, all the other factors in our country. But if the foundation of your citizens is not taken care of, nothing in the country will work.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Since we've come to the end of our time, I want to give you a couple of minutes, and then I want to give the NDP a couple. We're going to go beyond our time, but we're flexible on the road and we can do these kinds of things.

[Ed Komarnicki, Conservative, Souris—Moose Mountain, SK]

I just have a couple of points.

Without getting political, I know that in past years $25 billion was taken from the Canada social transfer. Of course, infrastructure suffers, but most importantly, the most vulnerable would probably take the first hit when that happens. I know we talked about some increases to the Canada social transfer--particularly a 40% increase for post-secondary education, which is significant.

Having said all of that, the thing I get is that a lot of organizations spend a lot of time searching for grants, preparing grants. You see that those who are good grant preparers seem to succeed, and those who aren't, don't, perhaps to the same degree. What you find is a lot of energy going in that direction. Part of that is because we want to be accountable for tax dollars. But my sense is that maybe we've gone too far in a certain direction and we're causing groups who have been there for years and years, doing good work, to try to survive by going through various kinds of grants. When you look at the formulas and you look at the application forms, you almost have to hire somebody to do that.

So I hear you on that, and I don't like what I see, but the question is, how do you fix that? How do we deal with that? Let's forget about more money. It's how you allocate what we have appropriately and how you make it so that people know they're going to survive and can operate for years down the road and don't have to go through this continuous application process.

Do either one of you want to tackle that one? Suggestions? Concrete proposals?

[Rene Ross]

I haven't stopped writing grants long enough to think about that. All I can say is that when I looked and considered the recession and everything, it's just going to get a lot worse, because our donations from Nova Scotians are going to decline. They already have. They've already started to and they're going to continue to do so. As I said, these are very small pots of money that we're after, and we are completely and totally accountable for everything, because we spend just as much time writing grants and proposals as we do on the interim report and the final report and the meeting and everything like that. As you said, in some cases, other non-profits will hire folks, or you rely upon volunteers, but--

[Ed Komarnicki, Conservative, Souris—Moose Mountain, SK]

The system is less than perfect. Do you have any suggestions as to how we can improve the system on a go-forward basis, or is that one of the necessary evils, so to speak, of continued existence?

[Rene Ross]

It's the nature of non-profit, but only to a certain extent. Again, I'm just seeing more and more over the past couple of years that people are spending a lot more time looking for those pots of money because there have been so many decreases from our core funding. That's both provincial and federal. So there's more time being put into that, because we want to keep our doors open and we want to continue those supportive programs and front-line services. I suppose if we weren't at the same level as we have been for ten years, with our core funding from the province, we wouldn't be doing this as much. Again, that goes back to larger things, like an increase in the CST and more collaboration between federal and provincial governments. So the bigger picture needs to be addressed.