Evidence of meeting #62 for Human Resources, Skills and Social Development and the Status of Persons with Disabilities in the 40th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was poverty.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Julie Ménard  Executive Director, Food Bank Society of Whitehorse
Laurie MacFeeters  Representative, Yukon Anti-Poverty Coalition
Amy Martey  Employer Liaison and Job Coach, Yukon Council on disABILITY
Patricia Bacon  Manager, Outreach Van
Chief Ed Schultz  Executive Director, Council of Yukon First Nations
Michael Dougherty  Co-Chair, Diocese of Whitehorse, Social Justice Committee at Sacred Heart Cathedral
Don Routledge  Senior Program Advisor, Yukon Housing Corporation
Charlotte Hrenchuk  Coordinator, Yukon Status of Women Council

9:25 a.m.

Representative, Yukon Anti-Poverty Coalition

Laurie MacFeeters

CYFN would be in a better position to answer that. It's not the right concept for here. We don't really have reserves. CYFN is the better group to talk to about that. The way our first nations have self-government, the issue of reserve lands and a lot of that is very different in the Yukon from other places in the country, so they can give you the full context.

9:25 a.m.

Conservative

Dona Cadman Conservative Surrey North, BC

Okay, thanks.

9:25 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Dean Allison

Yes, go ahead.

9:25 a.m.

Liberal

Michael Savage Liberal Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS

We didn't touch very much on child care. You mentioned Canada Without Poverty, Dignity for All, Campaign 2000. Lots of the organizations nationally that are working on poverty specifically reference the need for robust national, high-quality, accessible, affordable, early learning and child care.

Can somebody just talk briefly on that?

9:25 a.m.

Executive Director, Food Bank Society of Whitehorse

Julie Ménard

I don't really know the system, how it works here. I don't think I can talk on that, really.

9:25 a.m.

Liberal

Michael Savage Liberal Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS

Laurie, do you have a view on that? Is it part of your anti-poverty plan or an idea that we should...?

9:25 a.m.

Representative, Yukon Anti-Poverty Coalition

Laurie MacFeeters

It's theoretically part of the mandate, but our focus at the moment is more particularly on housing and some on health. We used to focus a lot on food and then kind of spun the food bank off to be its own organization. There is a child care organization that advocates quite well for caregivers here, but I don't know if they're appearing before you.

9:25 a.m.

Liberal

Michael Savage Liberal Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS

Have we seen this?

9:25 a.m.

Representative, Yukon Anti-Poverty Coalition

Laurie MacFeeters

The territory has a pretty good, but not perfect, system of subsidy for spaces. It is, I think, better than some other jurisdictions where the number of subsidized spaces, as I understand it, isn't limited in the way they sometimes are in other places. The subsidy ties to the person as opposed to the space. So that sort of thing is better.

Our child care is different. There is a lot more very small, sort of home-based, small business child care rather than the huge centres that exist in other jurisdictions. So some things are different again in the north. And sure, they have issues, the system is not perfect, but....

9:25 a.m.

Employer Liaison and Job Coach, Yukon Council on disABILITY

Amy Martey

Perhaps I'll just add to that.

The best source of information for this would probably be the women's groups in Whitehorse, either Les EssentiElles or the Victoria Faulkner Women's Centre. They've been doing quite a bit of work on the national and territorial agenda.

I think right now it's around $700 per child to attend day care for one month. So depending on the income, if you're not subsidized, what I do find is that some clients will choose to not have two people in the family working. If you have two or three children, it's actually more beneficial for one parent to stay at home in terms of having overall income increase.

9:25 a.m.

Liberal

Michael Savage Liberal Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS

Thank you very much.

9:25 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Dean Allison

We want to thank all of our witnesses this morning for being here and giving us some insight into what's happening in Whitehorse. Thank you once again.

I'm going to suspend the meeting as we change our witnesses.

9:35 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Dean Allison

Welcome back, as we return to deal with the issue of poverty and hear more testimony.

I want to welcome our two witnesses and thank you for taking time from your busy day to talk to us. As mentioned before, we've been looking at the issue of poverty for the last year or so. We've been out east and we've come out west, and it was also suggested that we come north. This is the first time our committee has travelled up here, and we appreciate the hospitality that we've been shown. Again, we appreciate getting a different perspective from what we've heard.

I'll start with Patricia Bacon from the Outreach Van. I hope you will tell us about what your organization does, and also maybe make some recommendations to us as a committee that we can go back and talk to the government about.

Welcome. You have seven minutes for questions and answers. After we hear from both witnesses we'll have questions from the MPs, either to clarify or go a bit deeper into some of the things you're talking about.

December 1st, 2009 / 9:35 a.m.

Patricia Bacon Manager, Outreach Van

Thank you very much. Thanks for inviting me to speak.

I'm Patricia Bacon, and I'm the executive director for Blood Ties Four Directions Centre, as well as one of the contributing managers for the No Fixed Address Outreach Van. I'm hear to talk today specifically about the outreach van.

The No Fixed Address Outreach Van is a collaboration of four agencies that work together to reduce the harmful effects of poverty and substance abuse in Whitehorse. The Outreach Van has been operating since 2001 and currently runs six nights a week in the community. The van provides a number of important services, including food. On a nightly basis it goes out and provides soup and sandwiches and fresh fruit, as well as clothing and basic hygiene supplies. It also provides outreach nursing services, harm reduction education, equipment--such as needle exchange--and counselling support, as well as socks and mittens. To give you an example, on average, the Outreach Van hands out 3,000 pairs of socks per year to marginalized, street-involved populations.

When it comes to the issue of food, in the first six months of this fiscal year, 2009-10, we provided over 5,700 meals, or nutrition—either hot soup or a sandwich—to over 1,200 different people in Whitehorse. This included 800 men, 400 women, 900 first nations, and 300 non-first nations. Included in that group were 97 children, 96 youth, and 205 young adults. So when we look at the issue of food security and hunger around poverty in Whitehorse, it crosses the entire section of the population.

Basic food security continues to be a problem in the north. Many clients rely on the van as one of their few reliable food sources. The van has enough food to meet the basic needs of about 70 people per night. Sometimes the demand is higher and it exceeds what we can provide.

On the issue of shelter and housing, where do our clients live? The majority of our clients accessing the van are living in chaotic, insecure, unstable housing conditions that include substandard rooming hotels and illegal suites. Many of our clients trade sex or drugs for a bed or couch for the night. In summer months, clients tend to camp outdoors; in winter months, they live at emergency shelters, drug houses, and rooming hotels. Obtaining secure, adequate accommodation is one of the most pressing concerns for our van client population.

At the Blood Ties Four Directions centre, one of the agencies that supports and works with the van to put the service on the road, this is also one of the most pressing concerns for our clients who are living with HIV and hepatitis C. They are struggling to find secure, stable housing as well.

That is what poverty looks like in a northern Canadian city. I understand that the HUMA committee is open to recommendations, so we have drafted the following.

Homelessness is a pressing issue in Whitehorse, and the picture of homelessness in the north can be different from that in southern Canada. It can be hidden, with few visibly homeless people. We respectfully ask the HUMA committee to define homelessness broadly, as it has many different presentations in Canada. In the north it is typically experienced as unsafe, inadequate, substandard, couch-surfing, chaotic, unaffordable, and overcrowded. This is what homelessness looks like in the north.

We also respectfully ask the HUMA committee to put forth recommendations and create opportunities for programs that can address the need for a variety of affordable, stable housing options for northerners. We need reasonably subsidized housing that is adequate to meet the higher cost of living in the north, and a variety of subsidized housing options are urgently needed in Whitehorse.

Thank you.

9:40 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Dean Allison

Thank you, Ms. Bacon.

We'll now move to Mr. Schultz and the Council of Yukon First Nations.

Mr. Schultz, I believe you're the executive director there. Thank you for being here today. We look forward to your presentation. You have seven minutes, sir.

9:40 a.m.

Grand Chief Ed Schultz Executive Director, Council of Yukon First Nations

Merci. Thank you very much.

I'd like to thank members of the standing committee for this opportunity to share some perspectives from a northern point of view, which is unique from our brothers and sisters in the treaty-based nations south of here.

One of the fundamental problems for many groups up here is capacity, or lack thereof, and therefore I apologize in advance that our written submission is not fully complete, but you will be in receipt of it as soon as practicable.

I will take this opportunity, and I thank you once again, to verbalize some points that might be useful in your deliberations and your consideration of what is obviously a very important subject matter for all people.

I am currently the executive director of the Council of Yukon First Nations. The Council of Yukon First Nations was formed in 1973 as an advocacy body on behalf of all first nations in this territory. Since that time it has undergone some evolution. Currently, today, it represents 10 Yukon first nations out of the 14 that are recognized under the modern treaty that's here in the Yukon.

In 1993, after 20-some-odd years of negotiations, our first nations brought forward, in partnership with the federal crown and with the territorial government, a modern land claims treaty agreement, of which you may be aware. It's a comprehensive treaty agreement, unlike those numbered treaties in the provinces. It's one that's comprehensive in its scope, looking at the involvement of first nations people in this territory in almost all the sectors of society, whether it be in education, health, the economy, and so forth.

It has an element that speaks to not only treaty rights, as defined more specifically related to lands, but it also talks about shared governance responsibilities in the delivery of public programs and services under the self-government agreements. That authority can be exercised by these first nations. We now have 11 first nations in the Yukon that are self-governing. By way of an interesting fact, of the 17 self-governing communities in Canada, 11 of them are right here. And we have four more of them just north of us, in Inuvik, Fort McPherson, and Arctic Red. When you start adding those four communities to that lot, you have virtually all the self-governing communities in Canada right here.

We are really viewed by many people, not only here in Canada but around the world, as being really in the forefront of cutting new relationships with contemporary governments and indigenous populations. Of course, it's very exciting but, nonetheless, has some very interesting challenges.

When we look at Canada and how it provides for its aboriginal citizens, a lot of the policies and initiatives that come out of Ottawa are heavily oriented to the treaty-based nations south of us, which constitute the majority of the aboriginal population in this country. And those arrangements, as you know, were framed or brought to bear early in the conceptualization of Canada itself, and as a matter of fact were necessities as a result of the Royal Proclamation of 1763, as well as the 1870 order, when Canada became more on the path of becoming its own nation.

What I would like to share with you are some realities. I'll thumbnail and bullet them as best I can, and try to tie them into some logical order or sense, but our paper will do it much more justice. In any event, I can let you know that in 1973 the social and economic condition of our people was so desperate that it necessitated them coming together. At that time, our nations had a lot of different organizations advocating status Indians and non-status Indians and aboriginal women--they were all fractured--and they pulled together to form the Council of Yukon Indians, with a grievance document that they tabled with Prime Minister Trudeau, and with Mr. Chrétien, who was the Minister of Indian Affairs at the time. That started the modern land claims process in this country. Canada accepted that document as being a basis upon which to start negotiations.

For our people it was desperate. Our people were still involved with a lot of the residential schools activity. The academic achievement levels of first nations students were significantly lower than those of other Canadians and Yukoners. The unemployment rates among our people were more than triple the rate of other Canadians. As well, in terms of our overall well-being, we had, of course, a much more deteriorated health status than other Canadians.

As a matter of fact, when you looked at all the social indicators, without bulleting them all, when you drew a correlation either to Yukoners or to Canadians, there was a huge disparity with first nations people who lived here.

In terms of housing conditions for the people, I remember living on the Whitehorse Indian band reserve here in Whitehorse. It was basically a patched together shack. We had no water, no electricity, and no real infrastructure in the community to support much healthier living. People were in pretty desperate straits, with high rates of alcoholism and drug abuse, rampant crime, as well as all the related social dysfunctions that come with living in abject and desperate poverty.

I recall as a boy having many days with nothing to eat, yet all around us in this territory there was wealth being generated. You have to remember, back when I was a young boy, the base metal boom was still happening here in the Yukon. We had the Faro Mine; we had a whole bunch of big mining activities going on. There were a lot of people who were building nice houses, and when I'd go to school, I could see that other people would have nice clothes and nice vehicles and they would have all the extracurricular things they could do. The idea that struck me, even as a young child, was the difference.

At that time, given the fact that our suicide rates were shooting through the roof and self-destructive behaviour was something that was going unchecked, our nations took it upon themselves to advocate for this modern treaty.

Without getting into details about the treaty, I can say that the main focus of the treaty was not so much to gain power as to be empowered to deal with all these social ills and to try to find ways to stimulate our communities to be healthier in terms of activity, because idle hands make for a lot of problems.

Since 1993, I've been working on implementing these arrangements. What's interesting is that these arrangements are funded through fiscal transfer arrangements, likened to the ones that Canada has with all the provinces and territories. They're five-year fiscal arrangements. They have built-in escalators for a whole bunch of things in terms of population and inflation and all that sort of stuff, very much like the provinces and territories. They're renegotiated every five years for those adjustment factors and all that sort of thing.

What's very clear in the treaty and the commitment by Canada was that there was, first, an affirmation in the treaty by ourselves, as well as by Canada, that we are indeed, as indigenous people, Canadian citizens, without question, and that we will be afforded every right and opportunity as any other Canadian citizen, without question, whether that be in public services, programs, or other types of support.

As we roll this out, what is really interesting for us--and this is where I think it might be interesting to you--is that we are engaged in a lot of activities related to the social condition of our people. But we're finding, as we see programs starting to roll out from Canada, that we have a lot of terminology that is utilized, such as “on-reserve” and “off-reserve” programming. For our circumstances here, it doesn't apply.

For the first part, we have only maybe two or three recognized reserves in the territory. For the most part, many of our communities don't have a reserve at all; they have what was called “land set aside”. Now the majority of our nations that are self-governing have what is called “settlement land”. That settlement land is defined as a tenure equivalent to fee simple, but the key word is “equivalent”; it's not the same. It's equivalent to fee simple in terms of how we could utilize it, but it is not recognized by many federal departments and ministries as being a designation. In other words, they still stick to the on-reserve, off-reserve; either you live on a reserve or you don't live on a reserve.

For our first nations, when it comes to on-reserve programming, our nations just don't qualify. Yet the social conditions that I spoke of earlier, we're still trying to address. We still haven't succeeded in bringing that equilibrium with other Canadians to our people.

We need those tools; we need those instruments that are being afforded other aboriginals and other Canadians across the country. We cannot take something that was so enlightening and good as a modern treaty, that all of our respective political officers and bureaucracies have negotiated over 30 years and have come to an agreement on, and allow it to be a barrier—and to be a barrier to actually trying to address the issues that were outlined in these treaties, all those negative social conditions.

We know that, for example, in all of our first nations, there's a significant urban-rural divide. I call it that in the Whitehorse context, and I'll qualify that because I'm sure people in Vancouver won't understand this—or Montreal or so forth—but there is our own minute urban-rural divide here in the Yukon. Whitehorse is very small in comparison to most communities in Canada, granted, but you compare Whitehorse, with its 20,000 to 21,000 people, versus our rural communities, which have anywhere from 300 to 400 to 500 people. And also in those rural communities the largest majority of the population is aboriginal. There is a difference in what type of infrastructure support is available for local community initiatives and development.

When we look at stimulus packages that are being rolled out, particularly in the north, related to a whole bunch of federal initiatives, we want to make certain that some of the most desperate communities receive some of these stimulus and infrastructure dollars. When you look at the history of this territory, going all the way back to the fur trade with the Russians and the Hudson Bay Company, the gold rush of 1898, the base metal boom of the late 1960s and early 1970s, and the ongoing activity that is happening today, and you look at the wealth that is generated out of this territory, there's no justifiable reason, in our minds, why any community should not have good-quality drinking water. There's just no acceptable reason, when billions of dollars have been generated out of this territory and have been shipped either to shareholders or as royalty payments to the crown or to the territorial government. Why do we still have a problem with people having good-quality drinking water in their communities? There's no justifiable reason for it. This is where we need to put a focus on what the building blocks are for breaking poverty. When we look at our communities, poverty is still a plaguing problem. It's one that holds you down and makes you desperate, and you do desperate things.

When we look at this urban-rural divide, of course, we need the basic elements addressed: drinking water quality, waste water and adequate disposal of waste waters, and so forth. Why is that important? When you look at the critical masses required to do the activities in the communities, small communities can't attract people to work there because we don't have enough adequate housing for people. We don't have enough housing—I know each of our first nations communities has a list as long as your arm of social housing requirements. That's symptomatic of a broader problem, of course. The key word is “social” housing. If people were more financially independent, they wouldn't be on that list; they'd buy their own homes.

When we look at the range of social programs that are being rolled out by Canada, again, the on-reserve/off-reserve issue continues to plague the rollout here in Yukon. We look at business support and entrepreneurial development in our communities and we talk about economic stimulation. If you don't have the fundamental infrastructure to support that—like good-quality drinking water and adequate housing requirements—and to attract the skills in these remote communities to help work on entrepreneurial activities, then it just gets to be a perpetual cycle. There gets to be the ongoing exodus from the rural areas to the urban centres, and that perpetuates itself where people get to a certain skill set here in Whitehorse and then make their way to the Winnipegs and the Torontos and the Vancouvers of the world.

When we look at the north and at the question Canada is faced with, and when we look internationally in relation to sovereignty, the ongoing challenges associated with the climate change issue, and the ongoing anticipation, not only by Canada, but China, Korea, the Far East, the Europeans, about the opening up of the north and accessing new resources, we see there's an opportunity for Canada to try to do it right, in partnership with not only the territorial government but with local and aboriginal communities.

If I had more time I'd talk your ear off, but I recognize I have to share the floor. This is a very complex issue. There's no simple answer to it. I commend you all for dedicating your time and focus on this question.

I think we do have a lot of tools available; they're just not accessible. Your committee could play an instrumental role in helping to turn that around. Our paper, once we provide it to you, will articulate our thoughts and recommendations on that in greater detail.

Merci.

9:55 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Dean Allison

Thank you, Mr. Schultz.

MPs, who have been known to talk a bit, have a hard time in their seven minutes trying to get all their questions and answers done, so there's always frustration on this end as well. We could have more information, but thank you very much for sharing that.

With that in mind, I'm going to turn it over to Mr. Savage. He has seven minutes.

9:55 a.m.

Liberal

Michael Savage Liberal Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS

Thank you, Chair.

And thank you, Mr. Schultz and Ms. Bacon.

I'm a Liberal MP from Nova Scotia and the human resources critic for the Liberal Party. I've been involved with this poverty study since the inception, along with Mr. Martin, and Mr. Allison, I think, and Mr. Lessard from the Bloc.

We are travelling this week. There would normally be more members, but some were called back to Ottawa. They will be rejoining us in Yellowknife tomorrow.

We often hear that we don't need to study poverty. We know it exists. We know the root causes, and by and large we know that if there's political will we can find solutions. One of the important reasons to get out and see the land is that there are some areas of need you might not know about by sitting in Ottawa.

Yesterday, in Vancouver, for example, we heard a lot about the loss of the Fraser River salmon and the hurt that has caused indigenous peoples in a lot of communities.

Here, the issue of water is one that I don't think most Canadians realize we have. There are areas in Canada where there isn't sufficient drinking water. There's a bit of attention when you hear about Kashechewan or Attawapiskat, places like that. But clearly that is something that has to be addressed in an anti-poverty plan. That is a very basic need. You can't live without clean water.

From what we've heard so far in the Yukon, the homelessness issue seems to be the number one issue—getting that national housing strategy in place that addresses all needs and all communities.

I just want to make one other point. There seems to be a growing gap between the rich and the poor in Canada even though we've had some decent times in the last decade. I'm quoting Campaign 2000:

Inequality between the rich and poor in Canada has grown more than in any other OECD country during the last decade, with the exception of Germany. For every dollar the average family with children in the poorest 10% of the population had, the family in the highest tenth of the population had almost 12 times as much..... Clearly, the wealth generated during good economic times was not distributed equitably.

Would that be the same in the Yukon? What is your view on that?

10 a.m.

Manager, Outreach Van

Patricia Bacon

I think, Mr. Savage, you're making a very good point. We do see that there's growing disparity between the haves and the have-nots. We've certainly seen in our work through Blood Ties and the outreach van that the need for just basic, decent housing has continued to grow as opposed to diminish, so what we're seeing is that fewer people are able to access decent, affordable housing.

We do have a number of people in our community who are doing very well, who are successfully working and engaged in work that allows them to buy homes that are working for them. But what we're seeing is that there are more and more people who can't meet that need. It's not just people who are struggling with addictions or substance use, but we're also seeing the same thing for younger people who are trying to go to college or just starting in the workforce. I would imagine you've seen that trend across Canada. There are fewer and fewer people who are able to get out there and make a life for themselves. We definitely see that here as well.

I think that speaks to the issue of overcrowding, as an issue around housing. Again, in the north, you don't necessarily see the person sleeping in doorways or in storefronts. That's not the kind of homelessness we have here—not in the winter, anyway. But we do have a homelessness problem. How we define it and how we want to look at it is really important. I think that's really important work for the committee just to see that.

10 a.m.

Executive Director, Council of Yukon First Nations

Grand Chief Ed Schultz

My lens might be somewhat biased by the people who I normally work for, who are indigenous people—I won't presume to answer the question in relation to all Yukoners—but at least from my perspective over the years, yes, there can be a greater spread between those who have and those who have not. I'll give you an example.

Historically, you shouldn't talk about other people, so I'll talk about myself. When we look at the challenges related to poverty—for example, early in life, I dropped out of school to work full time, out of necessity. It wasn't because I didn't want an education or my parents didn't want me to have one. We needed the money. Someone had to make extra money because there were mouths to feed, bills to pay. Sometimes you could find yourself in a situation where you just have to do that.

I was very fortunate in my life as an individual to go back and get some further academic opportunities. But a lot of people don't. So when you look at the root problems of why it's causing this divide and why the margin is getting wider, we look at some of the challenges associated with learner outcomes for aboriginal people, for example. We know there's a huge difference in the outcomes between our people and other Yukoners and other Canadians, which becomes a very strong barrier for people to try to achieve economic self-sufficiency or get meaningful employment. It perpetuates itself. It gets to be a problem.

I would say that the social condition of our people since 1973 certainly has improved. There's no denying that. But we still fall short of being at an equal level with other people on the whole.

10:05 a.m.

Liberal

Michael Savage Liberal Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS

Can I ask you this? We've heard in many places, and certainly here today, that we need a national housing strategy, and I think that will be part of our report, I can assure you.

It seems we also need a national water strategy. We talk about a national water strategy more and more, but it's usually from the point of view of fresh water and securing fresh water and keeping it from exports. But people like Larry Bagnell, who you would know, who's a colleague and friend of mine, has brought the interest of his community on this specific issue of water to Ottawa. Maybe that's what we need too—a national water strategy, part of which is to make sure that every community in Canada has clean water.

10:05 a.m.

Executive Director, Council of Yukon First Nations

Grand Chief Ed Schultz

I would agree 100%. I was involved with a number of things over the years related to community development. I remember being part of the national rural infrastructure committee as well as the cities and communities initiative under Paul Martin. We looked at a lot of these things, as a group of people from across the country.

There just doesn't seem to be any justifiable reason in Canada why people don't have good-quality basic infrastructure like good drinking water, basic human needs. Considering the wealth that is generated in many of the regions where these communities are, they really don't have good drinking water. There is a community and right next door maybe there's a mine that has generated $450 million in one year or whatever, but what did the local community get out of it?

I'll tell you what they get here, or have historically got. The public purse ends up paying for all the reclamation work and for ongoing remediation that is required to contain the contamination that threatens the water quality, which is already not good enough. They're not only trying to deal with the fact that their water is not good enough; they are also trying to make sure it doesn't get worse.

If we are compelling proponents of major projects in this country to make contributions, then the federal crown plays a big role in whether that can happen or not through its legislation and regulations. In my mind, we should make sure that local communities, regardless of ethnicity, have good-quality infrastructure as a direct benefit of the activity that is happening right next door. Canada has the ability to impose that in many ways.

10:05 a.m.

Liberal

Michael Savage Liberal Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS

Thank you.

10:05 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Dean Allison

Thank you, Mr. Savage.

We're going to move to Mr. Martin, for seven minutes, please.

10:05 a.m.

NDP

Tony Martin NDP Sault Ste. Marie, ON

Thank you very much.

This was indeed an education here this morning. It seems to me that sometimes when we grapple with these big fundamental issues we can miss the forest for the trees. We look at specific programs we want and need to implement but don't look at the systemic nature of the challenges we are facing.

I would never have believed that in a small compact community like Whitehorse there were the kinds of challenges you have talked about, Pat. In Canada we have a challenge in many parts of the country in terms of population and workforce. We are bringing people from offshore to work in our industries, yet we have all these people wasting away who are full of potential. Where do the people you deal with come from? What are the underlying causes for their arriving where they are?