Human Resources Committee on Dec. 2nd, 2009

[Gordon Van Tighem]

As a comparison, suppose I were to live in Norman Wells. My food, especially perishables, comes in by aircraft in the wintertime, until the winter road goes in. Once the winter road goes in, there's trucking, so the milk goes down from $12 a litre to the more normal $4 or $5 a litre, so people tend to stockpile. Then, at the end of the winter season the road goes out, and they depend on air briefly until the river opens and they can barge things in. The cost of barging and the cost of trucking are dramatically lower than the cost of air travel. There are also restrictions on air travel and challenges with the food mail program. It was recently changed to include volume as well as weight, because they found that a box of Cheerios takes up a lot of the airplane.

Another example is Yellowknife. Yellowknife as a community has large national chains located here. They're resupplied by truck. They use their national catalogue and make a good living. We have a road access except for a period of up to six weeks every year when the ferry isn't operating and the ice road isn't operating. What they do in that case, based on the volume—we're the largest self-sustainable community in the north—is suck that up over the rest of the year and still maintain the national pricing. So getting the goods flowing on a more competitive transportation basis, if you can, reduces the cost.

[Yves Lessard, Bloc, Chambly—Borduas, QC]

True. I understand that cost is an issue, but ongoing support is an issue, too. We are constantly trying to look deeper for the real means we can recommend. I will again use the example given by Ms. Wilson, and you also raised the question of housing.

For almost 10 years, the federal government did not provide any funds for housing. Funding has now been restored, but there is a large housing deficit throughout the territory and especially in areas like yours.

How do we prevent these things from happening again and how do we act quickly so that the families Ms. Wilson described have a place to live? It seems to me personally that the most promising ideas or suggestions should come from those who are living in the situation.

I repeat my question. In your opinion, what approaches should be taken? Is it simply a matter of money, or is it more than that? I put the question to each of you.

[Catherine Wilson]

Thank you.

When you go to the communities and you see the number of houses compared to the number of people living there, you know there is a severe housing shortage. The number of housing units needs to increase. I know the government is the largest landlord in most of the communities. They don't even have enough money to upgrade the houses to standard.

Money is good, but how much? As Gord said, the money that comes into the north to build a one-bedroom or three-bedroom apartment is about two times the cost in Winnipeg, for example. You can build two houses in Winnipeg for the cost of building one here in the north. Money helps. If we can get the money to increase the number of units in the communities, that would help a lot.

When you look at Inuvik, for example, you have families that don't have places to stay. They tend to travel down to Yellowknife because it's a big city and they might get an apartment. They might get other resources. They might get counselling services. They might get treatment services, those kinds of things. If they don't have anywhere to stay and they come here and have a friend or someone to stay with for a while, they choose that.

Yellowknife is short of houses, as are all the communities around the north, both in NWT and in Nunavut.

It's a really basic need, but if we provide enough money to build those houses for four people, I believe that will solve a lot of problems. At least a basic need will be met. At least families will have a place to put their heads, a place where they can take the time to gather their energy to take care of their families.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Thank you, Mr. Lessard.

We're going to move now to Mr. Martin for seven minutes.

[Tony Martin, NDP, Sault Ste. Marie, ON]

Thank you. It's good to be in Yellowknife, and it's good to have Mr. Lessard back. He's a big supporter of the work we do here, and he is certainly very passionate about the issue of poverty. It's nice to have him. As a matter of fact, I want to say the only reason we're up here and doing this work is because all of the parties have agreed that this is an important priority the government should be taking a look at, and all of us are sincerely looking for answers that might get us there.

We're nearing the end of a fairly lengthy exercise. We've been at this for a year and a half to two years now. We're looking at a report we will table in the House of Commons that will have in it some action plans. As I look at it myself and try to contribute to that work, there are three things, among others, that jump out at me that we need to address in some meaningful way. One is income security, the other is housing, and then there's this notion of social inclusion, making sure people are able to participate in the education system, health care, social programs in the community, and that kind of thing. How we get there and how we do that is of course the challenge.

There was a sense over the last 10 to 15 years--I've been in public life now for close to 20 years--that somehow the market, if it's doing well, will lift all the boats. I think the Northwest Territories is an excellent example of that really not being the case. Actually, when the economy gets good up here--as it is and is projected to continue to be--there are a lot of people who fall through the cracks and aren't benefiting because the cost of living goes up. As the economy gets better, the cost of living goes up, and if wages don't keep pace, and if the cost of delivering services to people who are in difficulty increases, it becomes more and more difficult. So in my view, government really does have a major role to play in making sure we have some level of equity, justice, and fairness, and that we're keeping people in a state that has them ready to participate when the opportunity presents itself.

I've heard three things this morning that I hadn't heard so far. One is this whole issue in the north of transportation, the impact it has on both access to goods and the cost of goods. Also, not that I haven't heard of it before, but there's the notion of the working poor. It's a new revelation--across the country, actually--that people working at minimum wage full time year-round can't afford the basics. So they live in poverty. There's the suggestion that maybe if we allowed organizing labour unions more readily, then some of that might be dealt with. Then there's this notion of sleeping in shifts. I would probably want you to talk to me a bit more about that.

Given income security, housing, and social inclusion, maybe you might speak to those--any one of you--and offer any suggestions you might have for the federal government. That's what we're looking at, the federal role in a national anti-poverty strategy here, how the federal government could play a constructive, positive role on those fronts.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Gordon.

[Gordon Van Tighem]

One of the things is in the process of being addressed--everything is always in the process of being addressed. We mentioned the economy and the fact that there are people falling through the cracks. One of the challenges is that our economy is to a great extent based on non-renewable resource development, and that creates boom and bust. In the boom, everything's happening; people are moving around. In the bust, those who can, move out, as Ben said, and for those who can't, the crack comes back down and they're back on the surface again.

Economic diversification, getting into some measure of stability in the economy would be one thing. CanNor and the Northern Economic Development Agency are a good first step on that. How can we grow on that?

This also ties to the discussion of housing. There's a Mohawk economist I've quoted from in a few presentations, and he says that no aboriginal community is going to excel until the government gets out of the housing area. Basically what he's talking about is the promotion of independence, the building of capacity there.

I ran an NGO for six years that was a community mobilization program. What we did was assist people in the transition from the traditional economy into the wage economy and the community around them. It pointed out to us that one of the key things... I'm a banker; I'm retired from a bank. I got involved in the program because I did the family budgeting thing. We ran 840 people through the program over those six years, and I found two in that period of time who could do budgeting for housing. The housing that's in the communities is frequently provided by the government, so it's not something people understand. When they move to a larger community, like Inuvik, Hay River, Fort Smith, or Yellowknife, they run into what Kate has described, in terms of what they're hitting.

Education is a critical component in preparing people for life, and I don't mean just the young kids coming up through school; I mean people moving into their first job. A person in the north could be moving into their first job at the age of 50, because they've suddenly decided that hunting and trapping are starting to get on their weary bones, so let's go drive a truck in a mine. There's a huge life-change decision that happens. Of the two people I ran into who could do housing, one of them was a fellow who was approaching 50 and had actually owned a home for a brief time.

Education is key, as is diversification of the economy, hopefully, so that there's more stability.

[Ben McDonald]

There are probably two comments I'd like to make. One is that I don't think I necessarily have prescriptions for what would be a good program for the Northwest Territories, and that probably speaks to what I think the federal government should be looking for if it does come up with an anti-poverty strategy. It can't be one-size-fits-all. It has to empower provincial and territorial governments to address the problems that are endemic in their local area. For us that includes transportation, it includes housing, and other matters like that.

I don't have an immediate prescription for how to do that, but I think the critical thing is that we're not the same as Prince Edward Island, we're not the same as a riding south of Montreal. The country is big and diverse and we have different problems. There should be an anti-poverty strategy that sets a minimum standard underneath all Canadians. How we actually get there should be achieved through consultation and through the empowerment of people closer to on-the-ground services.

I don't know if that's helpful to you.

On a second point, you spoke about the history of how Canada has been operating in the last 15 or 20 years. In 1995 there was an across-the-board 5% cut implemented in the Northwest Territories as a cost-saving measure. The housing programs were killed, income security programs were killed, and we've still not recovered from that to this day. The soft services were the ones that were cut; the hard services were maintained. That 5% translated into virtually no housing being built in the Northwest Territories, outside of the few communities that have a market.

I'm not sure if people are clear on the fact that in the communities there is no market for private housing. Very few are built and very few are ever sold. There just is no market there. When we talk we have to be conscious of the reality up here. In the smaller communities no one's going to build or buy or sell a house. There are financial or banking reasons for that.

Where I'm going on that is that I think we got ourselves into the position we're in now, with the poverty at the level we have, the desperation at the level we have now, at least in part through conscious public policy.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Go ahead, Ms. Wilson.

[Catherine Wilson]

The measure of a good community or a good country, as I understand it, is how it treats its poor. So for a good country, you look at the poor people in that country and see how they are being taken care of. I look at Canada, and I look at Canada's north, and the aboriginal people are not living well. They are not living well. You go to the communities and it's sad.

For somebody who takes care of people who are poor, I don't have anything to say about how to do it, or who should do it, or who should solve the problem. All I know is it needs to be solved. Whether it's the feds, or it's the provinces, or it's the community, it needs to be done. People need to have that basic human right of shelter over their head and food on the table.

What are we doing as humans to the other humans in our system who are not doing well? What are we doing? Where is the will? Of course, right now there's a will. That's why we are all here. But when is it going to be done? I've said it in forums like this and it's happened, but it seems as though it's always being talked about and nothing is being done. There is a sense of urgency in the north. So I'm pleading with you, for the people here, for the aboriginal people here in the north, please do something.

I always have this saying and I'm going to say it, and I don't know how appropriate it's going to be, but if this were happening to any group of people elsewhere in the world, it would be called genocide. It would be called genocide. So what are we doing here as Canadians? Why are aboriginal people, who own this land in the north, living in standards that are lower than those in the third world? I think that's all I have to say.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Thank you, Tony.

Thank you, Ms. Wilson.

We're now going to move over to Ms. Cadman for seven minutes.

[Dona Cadman, Conservative, Surrey North, BC]

Thank you.

You said there were four shelters in Yellowknife? There are only four. And yours is the only one that deals with women?

[Catherine Wilson]

It deals with families.

[Dona Cadman, Conservative, Surrey North, BC]

It deals with women and families.

There's obviously a big need. I really don't know what to say, because your stories have really touched me. What can we do? Give us some direction. Help us.

We understand there are a lot of problems, that there's a lot of poverty. Where do we start?

[Gordon Van Tighem]

Just to explain, we said that within Yellowknife we have one of the most effective homelessness coalitions under the national homelessness strategy in the country. All of the people, Kate and her confreres in the other support agencies, get together on a monthly basis with all of the government funders and program operators and they have an open discussion. They've broken down and set their strategies and priorities.

We have built a transitional centre for men, which supports the emergency centre for men. There are about 49 beds, I believe, in the emergency shelter, and those beds can include mats. There are 32 in the transitional shelter. Kate and the YWCA run an emergency program for families. Then the Centre For Northern Families runs a program for women. Our current highest priority is to build a transitional shelter for women. There's just been an application to the housing corporation for the funding to put that in place.

The other challenge is that we do have a centre for youth, but under the social services legislation, young offenders legislation, and other things, you're really restricted in what you can do with youth. So the manner in which homeless youth are administered to isn't quite right, but it's a survival requirement. Recognizing that these people are run off their feet, especially in the emergency shelters at nighttime, and that there was nothing for the daytime, we've just, in the last two or three weeks, opened a day shelter, which is an area where people can gather and also get assistance and recommendations and food and coffee and those types of things.

[Dona Cadman, Conservative, Surrey North, BC]

Are there programs for them, health-wise and maybe for mental health problems, or anything like that?

[Gordon Van Tighem]

There are programs. The challenge there, though, is that we live in a country where everybody has rights and freedoms, and they need to choose as well, so it's a matter of encouraging healthy choices and providing the avenues to them.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Go ahead, Ms. Wilson.

[Catherine Wilson]

As I said before, even the programs that are there to support poor people are all in trouble—all the programs. We are short-staffed. Nobody provides money for programming, like counselling services, within those programs to help the clients we serve. Every one of those programs is running in a massive negative, you see. Even the supports, as soon as they are supposed to be helping the poor, are not doing well. You can sense our sense of urgency on this issue. Everything is crumbling around us and there's nothing we can do.

So it is very timely that you are here. I'm hoping what we see here goes beyond putting things together, into action, because action is what has been lacking all these years, and that's what I know I'm pressing for--action--to relieve some of these things that are going on up north here.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Go ahead, Gordon.

[Gordon Van Tighem]

I mentioned the facilities that are available, and Kate has urged me to also note that while these are in place, we are constantly searching for more resources for them and constantly requesting more programs. From the municipal level, this is outside of our mandate, so it's a matter of influencing the territorial and federal governments to improve their programs and program funding.

The other thing is it's also, as I mentioned earlier, a growth area. If the facilities are in place, it's like the Field of Dreams—“Build it and they will come”—and they come, and the need becomes greater. The urgency is there. Don't let me understate that.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

I'm just going to ask a couple of questions before I turn it back over to Mike, and maybe to Gordon, Ben, or Kate. I come from a rural community in southwestern Ontario, and it by no means has the kinds of issues you people have to deal with. Our challenge is being good corporate citizens who have the ability to also give. My question, just for my curiosity's sake, is this. You have three major mining operations. What kinds of citizens...?

I realize this could be a bit of a double-edged sword in terms of a question, but I also sit on the trade committee, and we talk about our companies being good corporate stewards around the world. My question is how you feel they help contribute. I realize it's not necessarily their area of responsibility to be dealing with housing issues, but how do these corporate citizens work in your case?

Part of what we heard in Whitehorse was there were just not a lot of businesses that can help. I ask that question.

[Gordon Van Tighem]

In our situation, from my experience, we live in an area that prospers under cooperation and co-existence. It's very much on a traditional basis. The mining companies you mentioned have come to the table, to a great extent. One of the first things identified was that it would be far better to employ local people rather than flying them in and out. So several of the mines have contributed to secondary level pre-trades programs at the high schools, and there's a program there.

When we talk about housing, especially with homelessness, the BHP Ekati mine funded the study that led to our day shelter and has contributed operating money through the first three years of its operation, partnered with health and social services in the city, to the extent of providing some useful work activities.

The men's shelter I mentioned--the project manager was the Diavik diamond mine. We put up an $8.6 million building for $5.2 million. The balance of that was community donations, contributions from the mines, and it was a massive community opportunity. As I said before, the community really comes behind things. The De Beers mine has been active in the educational program and in a number of other things.

At the back of that, all of those mines have a pre-negotiated impact benefits agreement with the aboriginal communities they're impacting, so they're flowing significant dollars into those communities as well.

From my experience, the mines have put an ice pad into the arena in Coppermine/Kugluktuk. They put one in Lutsok'e. They're currently doing some work in Betchico. They've assisted us in putting together our territorial dementia centre here, which was home care or a hospital psych ward before. Also, they came in and assisted with the second phase of our multiplex hockey arena and allowed it to come in on budget and two and a half years early. So from my perspective in dealing with them, they've been very much a part of the community.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Thanks.

Go ahead, Ben.

[Ben McDonald]

I don't want to bad mouth the corporations because they do a lot of good work, but I think I'll make a couple of points, if I may.

In the first instance, to give you an idea, the first diamond mine that opened up here, during its first year of operation, made a million dollars a day. It paid off the capital investment in the mine in something like two and a half years. So the diamond mines were fabulously wealthy.

At the same time as these mining corporations were as wealthy as they were, corporate taxes were falling. I think what that does--and it troubles me, and it troubles the people in Alternatives North. Why should a corporate board of directors be deciding whether there will be a recreation facility in Kugluktuk? I'm glad they put the money into it; I'm glad they put the money into the arena in Yellowknife, the dementia centre, and all the other projects they're doing, but we shouldn't be delivering those sorts of services based on corporate charity. There should be a reasonable tax regime put in place, and elected officials should make the choice as to where that money is being spent.

It's clear that the mines have the resources to invest in these sorts of things, but I think we have it a little backwards as to who decides public policy. It should not be corporate boards of directors; it should be elected governments.