Human Resources Committee on Dec. 6th, 2012

[Joe Daniel, Conservative, Don Valley East, ON]

Red Seal is applicable across the country, right?

[Henry Reiser]

Correct. What an electrician, for example, needs to know to be a competent electrician is outlined in the competencies that individual will gain on the job and in school.

Remember that in apprenticeship training, 15% of that is in school, with the other 85% in practical skills that are learned in the workplace.

[Joe Daniel, Conservative, Don Valley East, ON]

Yes, but surely the same skills would apply across the country.

[Henry Reiser]

That is correct, but it's a question of when they are delivered within the levels. In level one, for example, B.C. and Alberta may have different competencies to be mastered. If we can get the provinces to deliver the same competencies and the same levels, then that would greatly enhance the mobility of the individual apprentice across the country.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Komarnicki]

Does anyone else wish to make a comment?

Ms. Robinson?

[Nobina Robinson]

Well, that's just going back to my earlier point. There are industry professions here. That standardization must come from the employer community that is setting the standard that the electrician needs to be trained to. We are the delivery agent. When a college or a polytechnic receives the block training, we have almost a scripted curriculum we must follow, which has been designed by that profession.

On other fronts—and let's broaden this discussion to post-secondary—that's where we are seeking mobility. Within Polytechnics Canada, we have a “my student is your student” arrangement. In this country, there is no credit transfer system, there is no academic mobility. Within apprenticeship, which is so very specifically tied to each and every different profession, we need to look to the employer community to show leadership, and to say, across the country, that a welder is a welder.

Now, there are these 55 Red Seals. You're asking why we can't do it for all 300 professions.

[Joe Daniel, Conservative, Don Valley East, ON]

No, I didn't ask that. I asked why you couldn’t focus on the building trades, for example, since most of the apprentices are primarily from there, and the building trades should be uniform across the country. I don't think that just passing it back to the employer is the answer. The question is, how can you as associations, etc. do something to make standardization, at least on some of the widely used apprenticeships—

[Nobina Robinson]

I would suggest the positive place here is the common curricula on certain well-defined professions. That exists and that gets shared.

For example, innovations in trades training—we heard about mobile training—can be shared better, but will take resources to do that. Each college is coming up with solutions for their place-based needs. How do you make that a national case? That requires funding.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Komarnicki]

Have you finished your questioning?

[Joe Daniel, Conservative, Don Valley East, ON]

I was going to ask one more question.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Komarnicki]

Okay, you can ask one more question.

[Joe Daniel, Conservative, Don Valley East, ON]

In Europe, in Britain and places like that, apprenticeship starts right out of high school. What's stopping that happening here?

[Henry Reiser]

Well, it is happening; it's happening in British Columbia and it's happening in Ontario with Ontario youth apprenticeship programs. It's happening with ACE-IT programs.

Again, the primary challenge is that students are completing these pre-apprenticeship programs and are not able to secure an apprenticeship because of the employer’s aversion to the investment, due to whatever economic burden of the training is perceived by the employer. The employer has a tradition of hiring its skilled workers off the street, particularly large employers, and that tradition has to change.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Komarnicki]

Mr. Doyle, do you have a comment to conclude with?

[Ken Doyle]

In Europe, they really value the craftsman and there is no shame in pursuing an apprenticeship straight out of high school and then pursuing higher education. In Canada, it's seen as a third or fourth route if you couldn't get into college or university. Philosophically, that has to change if we want to see improvements.

We do a great job at graduating people from college and university. We generate a lot of highly qualified people, but a credential is one thing and having skills to apply is different, so we really need to move towards fostering highly qualified skilled people to put the theory and the skill to use, to make things better.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Komarnicki]

Thank you very much, everyone, for your presentations and your forthrightness in answering the questions. We appreciate that very much.

With that, we'll adjourn.