Human Resources Committee on Oct. 30th, 2014

[Frank Valeriote, Liberal, Guelph, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Cuzner.

I want to thank Ms. Gray, Mr. Thorsteinson, and Ms. Williams for your presentations. You've highlighted the three real benefits of this legislation. First and foremost it is a compassionate piece of legislation addressing the needs of people at the most serious and probably the most sensitive part of their lives, when they're grieving the loss of a loved one. It's a piece of consumer legislation in that it will ultimately reduce the costs, primarily for the consumer, who will no longer have to turn to people like lawyers to help them fill out documents and make contact with the government.

I know that because I was one of those estate lawyers people would often come to and say, “I don't know what to do.” They would find the process so daunting that they would just give up and place it before my me or my staff. I would say, “Well, I'm going to have to wind up billing you for this extra work and I don't want to have to do that. Are you sure you can't do it yourself?“ They found it so overwhelming that they preferred to just leave it at the doorstep of a lawyer.

As well it does create efficiencies in government. I think Mr. Armstrong has highlighted the fact that this will unfold over time. This isn't just going to be, over time, we'll flick a switch and everything will happen tomorrow. It is going to be cumulative and incremental, using SIN with other departments that will adopt the SIN system and integrate as our systems improve and our technologies change.

I'm going to ask a few questions and I'll ask this of Ms. Gray and Mr. Thorsteinson first.

Do you know of anyone who had, or did either of you ever have, to deal with a lawyer with respect to these issues of someone dying and having to apply for benefits with the government?

[Janet Gray]

I haven't had to, personally. As I mentioned I'm a professional financial planner so I feel very comfortable in helping clients or family members dealing with a lot of that. Of course when it's a personal death in the family it's another matter. It can be overwhelming, but knowing what I know, with the frustration I still felt, I certainly feel for people who have no idea where to start. I know that the funeral homes do offer an awful lot of assistance, especially with their after-care programs that many of them have taken on.

I do want to mention, while I have the opportunity, that it's not just families who have to be involved in these processes. It can be out of town, or out of the country, family members. It can be trustees and lawyers, and other well-meaning neighbours and friends. It's not always overlaid with the grief, but it's certainly overlaid with the frustration. Like I said, while I haven't fortunately had the frustration that some people certainly have, I know that within my working environment and with the CARP environment too.

[Barry Thorsteinson]

I've personally had experience with those many 800-number phone calls at the various government departments upon the passing of my parents a few years back. I did find the documentation from the funeral director to be helpful to quickly navigate that. I did not deal with a lawyer directly.

[Frank Valeriote, Liberal, Guelph, ON]

Janet, you raise a good point because it's not always a relative or family member who know the affairs of the deceased. Quite often it's somebody who doesn't know the affairs of the deceased and that makes it that much more daunting because they don't know which department to get in touch with, necessarily, not knowing what the state of circumstances are with the deceased.

I was mindful of a circumstance in a scenario that was raised by the funeral association the other day about the person who is representing the estate and three, four, nine, or ten months later finds a lot of money in the account of the deceased, not realizing that there were payments that were being made to the deceased even after the point of death, which has to be returned. I thought about those circumstances where the money is easily returned, or indeed the money is not returned at all, and the government is using staff to try and recover that money. I thought, if that's eliminated at the point of death, there are savings found right there.

Have any of the three of you ever experienced, either yourselves or with those who have used your services, people who found themselves in receipt of that money and had to return it?

[The Chair, Conservative, Phil McColeman]

Actually, I'm going to have that answer perhaps in the time of some other questioner, because you're out of time.

We'll move to Mr. Butt for five minutes.

[Brad Butt, Conservative, Mississauga—Streetsville, ON]

Thank you all very much for being here.

Maybe I'll just follow up and have you answer Mr. Valeriote's question, because I think it's a very good one. It's one main reason that I like the idea of this bill.

People are getting payments after death. The executors don't know; the family members don't know. It has been set up as a direct deposit, probably, which is automatically going into an account. The account is sitting there.

We know that some wills and estates are complicated. They take a long time to work out before people get access to money; there aren't powers of attorney; there aren't other things.

Why don't you take the opportunity to answer Mr. Valeriote's question? I think it's a very good one.

[Janet Gray]

The short answer is no. I've heard it anecdotally. I don't have any case studies or direct experience with it, but I know that it does happen.

[Barry Thorsteinson]

I have the same answer. In short, the answer is no, so I can't help you much on the substance of what you're looking for.

[The Chair, Conservative, Phil McColeman]

Ms. Williams.

[Marny Williams]

In my presentation I talked about the one lady who received a cheque for $61, which she was dealing with because she had to return it, and about the paperwork required just to return that $61. She had already notified the government as well, but it had come out.

[Brad Butt, Conservative, Mississauga—Streetsville, ON]

The funeral directors' association was here a couple of days ago. They indicated to this committee that they would be very willing to work with Service Canada and with the Government of Canada on the implementation of this.

They indicated that they use their own death certificate, which in many ways is similar to the ones the various provinces are using. As we're all aware, the provinces register births and deaths in Canada; we rely on the provinces to work with us. Some provinces, it appears, are much more efficient, let's say, in the reporting than others.

It was in their presentation that they indicated it could take as long as 48 days, in some cases, before a death certificate is issued by a provincial government. It seems to me that's quite a long period of time, although there may be special circumstances in that regard.

Are you folks comfortable enough and confident, from your perspective, that if Service Canada were to agree to use—and I believe in some circumstances it already does—a funeral director's death certificate as the official notice of death to get this new process of one-stop reporting to Service Canada going, it would satisfy your concerns? Or do you think the process should be the registration of the official, provincial death certificate that is used?

I see the funeral directors as speeding the process up, which I think is in the best interest of everybody. It is a legal document that, it appears, has status. I'm curious to know about your positions on that.

This is to each of you.

[Barry Thorsteinson]

I don't see any problem with it whatsoever. I may be speaking a personal judgment, but I just can't see any problems with the authenticity of the documentation supplied by the funeral director. I hope Service Canada can enshrine the legitimacy of the process as well. If it requires some provincial, official documentation, that just delays the process. I would leave it in the hands of the professionals to work it out.

The short answer to your question is that there should not be a problem with it because copies of the documentation are normally accepted by the various departments and any other interested organizations.

[Brad Butt, Conservative, Mississauga—Streetsville, ON]

Did anyone else want to comment on this, or are you generally of the same view?

[Marny Williams]

I personally only gave out funeral home death certificates; I never used the provincial ones. The funeral home was adequate for me to notify people.

Just to address the question of using the funeral home as a point of contact, many bereaved build a relationship with the funeral home people, and they're quite comfortable going back to them to discuss what needs to be done. I think it's a great idea for the funeral homes to be that point of contact as well.

[Janet Gray]

Let me add that whatever it takes to get it done faster is the point CARP comes from on this matter. I would suggest that there still be an alternative, because not everyone will deal with a funeral home, or there are going to be different permutations of it, so I don't know that it's the single point of access we're looking for. But if it's going to move the process along to accept their death certificates, then absolutely, yes.

[The Chair, Conservative, Phil McColeman]

Thank you very much.

That ends our first round of questioning, and as I said at the start of the meeting, we are going to have one round of questioning.

It's now time to thank you for taking your time to be here to respond to this bill. As you can see, and as I believe was mentioned, there is all-party support here.

We're appreciative of your giving us your points of view today.

We're going to pause for a short period and then move on to clause-by-clause consideration.

[The Chair, Conservative, Phil McColeman]

We're back in session for the consideration of the clause-by-clause of Bill C-247.

I'd like to welcome to our committee, Justin Vaive, our legislative clerk.

You have something before clause-by-clause?

[Jinny Sims, NDP, Newton—North Delta, BC]

Mr. Chair, I have a notice of motion:

That the Standing Committee on Human Resources, Skills and Social Development and the Status of Persons with Disabilities, at its earliest opportunity, undertake the study of the functionality of the Social Security Tribunal.

[The Chair, Conservative, Phil McColeman]

Is this a notice of motion, or is it a motion?

You said “notice of motion”.

[Jinny Sims, NDP, Newton—North Delta, BC]

Sorry, it's a motion because the notice was already given.

[The Chair, Conservative, Phil McColeman]

Are you moving it?

[Jinny Sims, NDP, Newton—North Delta, BC]

I'm moving it.

[The Chair, Conservative, Phil McColeman]

Mr. Armstrong.

[Scott Armstrong, Conservative, Cumberland—Colchester—Musquodoboit Valley, NS]

I move to go in camera, please.

[The Chair, Conservative, Phil McColeman]

That's not debatable, so we will take a short pause to move....

Oh, I'm sorry, we need to vote.