Human Resources Committee on Dec. 5th, 2013

[James Sutherland]

—and those 48,000 are those who pass that test. They're identified as keeping the job.

On whether or not they're there two or three years later, what I can say is in our research around the aboriginal skills and employment partnership program, the duration of the job wasn't necessarily tracked, but the increase in income over the average was quite significant when they found that employment.

[Joe Daniel, Conservative, Don Valley East, ON]

I want to go now to the fallout at schools. Are we educating these children in the right manner to allow more of them to actually graduate, or are we just applying a standard Canadian school process that is not conducive to their learning background, if you want to put it that way?

[Chris Rainer]

One of the fundamental principles in the approaches going forward is first nations control over first nations education, because really, to that point we think communities are best placed to determine what the needs of their students are. What we are proposing is not what you'd see in a provincial education act where they detail how you run your school, what exactly will be taught on day one, day five, and day ten. We think those decisions are best made by communities.

What we do know is that we want to ensure that students do have opportunities once they graduate, so they at least have a high school diploma that would be recognized to give them the opportunities to go into the workforce, into post-secondary education, or whatever choice they would like to make. Education is a key; it's an opportunity.

[Joe Daniel, Conservative, Don Valley East, ON]

I agree with that, but there's a fallout rate of 38% or something. Did I hear somebody say that?

[Chris Rainer]

There are some very successful examples in parts of the country. For example, in Nova Scotia where they have a self-government agreement, the Mi'kmaq have a graduation rate that actually exceeds that of the non-aboriginal population in the province. They've been doing a fantastic job. Part of that, they tell us, is attributed to the fact that they have control, that they're able to deliver the curriculum in a way that makes sense to their students. They understand their issues.

[The Vice-Chair (Ms. Jinny Jogindera Sims), NDP, Jinny Sims]

Thank you.

I'm going back to Ms. Crowder.

[Jean Crowder, NDP, Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC]

Thank you Madam Chair.

I have a couple of comments before I pose a question.

I think I have been around here too long because I can remember too many of these reports. To get back to Mr. Mayes' comment about the Inuit, back in, I think it was 2005, Justice Berger issued a report which in part dealt with education in Nunavut. He indicated, I believe, that about $20 million needed to be infused into the education system in order to meet the conditions in the land claims and self-government agreement. To my knowledge, that report was never officially responded to. You don't need to respond to that.

Mr. Mayes also mentioned the post-secondary report that the committee worked on, which was a very good report. One of the committee's recommendations was to infuse some additional funding into the PSSSP, the post-secondary student support program, and the ISSP, the Indian studies support program. Instead what we've seen are unilateral changes to the ISSP that have made it very difficult for some institutions to carry on with some of the very good aboriginal programming that they were doing.

The third piece I wanted to raise was with regard to per capita funding for K-to-12 schools on reserve. The number that's being floated out there and consistently used says that the funding is somewhere between $12,000 to $14,000 per student. That is utter nonsense. On-reserve schools do not get the same level of funding as off-reserve schools. The number that is being floated is the gross amount of money divided by the gross number of students, and that includes students who first nations have to pay for to attend provincial schools. I've seen the memorandums that demonstrate that sometimes on-reserve schools will get $6,000, $7,000, or $8,000 but they'll be paying off-reserve schools $12,000 or $14,000.

We need to clear up this notion that first nations on reserves are getting exactly the same or equitable funding as off-reserve schools. It's simply not true. You can ask any first nations community that is in that situation. If the committee would like it, I can provide some documentation to that effect so that we can quit using that number which is simply not true.

I want to ask Mr. Clarke about FNLMAs.

We would agree, Mr. Clarke, that FNLMAs are certainly a way forward in terms of control in the community of land development, economic opportunity, and certainty. It's a very good program. My understanding is that at the last count there were about 80 first nations that were on the wait list for FNLMAs. Is that still correct, Mr. Clarke?

[Allan Clarke]

The number is somewhere up there around that number, although it has been reduced over the past number of years by some more investments in getting first nations onto the FNLMA rule.

[The Vice-Chair (Ms. Jinny Jogindera Sims), NDP, Jinny Sims]

You've still got time. We're going to stop the clock for a second.

As the chair I am going to intervene at this stage and say that if you have the actual numbers, could you get them to us through the clerk please.

Thank you.

[Jean Crowder, NDP, Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC]

Sorry, Mr. Clarke.

We've seen some very successful FNLMAs put in place where I think part of the issue is it is a clear demonstration of where first nations have control of what's happening in their communities, which relates to a number of these other factors. Is that correct?

[Allan Clarke]

Under the 34 sections of the Indian Act that affect land management, yes.

[Jean Crowder, NDP, Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC]

I want to talk about ASETS and the problems we've been hearing about with regard to client data being uploaded to ESDC.

Has that problem been fixed, Mr. Sutherland?

[James Sutherland]

We believe so. There are still some issues to clear through. We recently instituted what we hope is a solution for that.

[Jean Crowder, NDP, Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC]

Some of the ASETS holders have indicated that they don't feel they're adequately resourced to do the reporting that's required under the ASETS program.

Are adequate funds in the contract? You indicated earlier that the formula hasn't changed since the late nineties, and I understand the reporting has increased. Have the resources for reporting been increased?

[James Sutherland]

The formula for the distribution of the funding has remained the same, as well as the amount of funding. It has been pretty much a static amount. The rules that they operate under say that 15% of their program funding is to be used toward administrative costs. That has remained consistent.

There have been some changes to the reporting requirements over the years, additions and subtractions, but the amount of money has remained static.

[Jean Crowder, NDP, Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC]

Is that part of the review that's going on? I'm sure you're aware that the Auditor General has talked about the amount of reporting first nations and aboriginal organizations are required to do, and has deemed it excessive.

Are they looking at reductions in reporting?

[James Sutherland]

Yes, in fact we have an active working group that's working with the ASETS agreement holders to reduce the reporting burden.

[Jean Crowder, NDP, Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC]

Thanks, Mr. Sutherland.

[The Vice-Chair (Ms. Jinny Jogindera Sims), NDP, Jinny Sims]

Thank you very much.

Monsieur Butt.

[Brad Butt, Conservative, Mississauga—Streetsville, ON]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair. Thank you to the witnesses for being here today.

As with Mr. Daniel, this portfolio is a learning curve for me as well. Even though I come from Mississauga, which of course is named after the Mississaugas of the New Credit, I have to admit that aboriginal education is not my area of expertise, but it's good to be here and it's good to learn.

Some of the questions Ms. Crowder was asking had to do with funding levels and so on. I know that in Ontario, Catholic education in our public schools is not funded at the same level as public education, yet the outcomes are often better in Catholic education than they are in public education. It's really not an issue about the gross amount of money we're spending on all these programs. It's really about how we're spending the money, where we're spending the money, and what levels of results we are getting.

Would you not agree with that statement?

[Chris Rainer]

There is certainly a question on the structure of the funding as well. When we're talking about the per capita, what we're talking about is the full envelope of all money that goes to K-to-12 on-reserve education. The per capita amount is when you divide that up by the number of students; it comes out to that favourable rate. That's up on our website, and we'd love to send you those figures for all of you to see.

The issue, though, is whether it's being spent in the right way. Do first nations have the right control over putting it to the priorities for their particular students in their schools? There are some great models out there across the country that we want to build on to emulate the success that has occurred in various communities across the country in how they've addressed outcomes and higher graduation rates for their students.

[Brad Butt, Conservative, Mississauga—Streetsville, ON]

I would assume most of the post-secondary education that's delivered for aboriginal people is off reserve, not on reserve. I would suspect there's little to no direct programming on reserve at the post-secondary education level.

What do you find when you track individuals who are taking post-secondary education after they have completed their secondary education on reserve, going off, taking whatever programming they're taking, and then actually returning to live on the reserve and possibly working in the immediate community? Do we have any idea how many or what percentage of those students, after they have completed post-secondary education, want to live back on reserve and work in the neighbouring community? Or are most of these young people who are obtaining post-secondary education leaving and not coming back?

[Chris Rainer]

I don't have those figures. We can look at that.

[The Vice-Chair (Ms. Jinny Jogindera Sims), NDP, Jinny Sims]

Thank you.

I'm just going to take a moment. I can't help it, so I do beg everybody's indulgence.

We've just heard the news that Nelson Mandela has passed away. I just wanted to share that with everyone. He's a man who touched many lives around the world and is an icon for many of us. It seems strange to just sit here and ignore it when I've just heard that. I do apologize for the interruption. We did stop the clock, and we will carry on.

[Brad Butt, Conservative, Mississauga—Streetsville, ON]

That's completely fine, Madam Chair. Thank you for bringing that to our attention.

Maybe I'll let you answer the question, folks.