Evidence of meeting #3 for Human Resources, Skills and Social Development and the Status of Persons with Disabilities in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was hours.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Mary-Lou Donnelly  Commissioner for Workers, Canada Employment Insurance Commission, Department of Employment and Social Development
David Gray  Professor of Economics, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
Colin Busby  Associate Director, Research, C.D. Howe Institute
Daniel Kelly  President and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Federation of Independent Business

4:30 p.m.

Commissioner for Workers, Canada Employment Insurance Commission, Department of Employment and Social Development

Mary-Lou Donnelly

Yes, absolutely. The 910 hours was just so difficult for folks. As to making that change, as is proposed by this government, we fully support that; however, we would like to see it be uniform across the country. As I said before, when you lose your job, you lose your job. You don't have a job, and it might be easier in one region, but it might still take you six weeks to find a job.

I think everybody should be equal across the country. In terms of our research and what we've found, Canada is one of the only countries in the world where there is that variable entrance requirement for EI, so we would really like to see that studied and a good decision made there.

4:35 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bryan May

Thank you.

Mr. Long.

4:35 p.m.

Liberal

Wayne Long Liberal Saint John—Rothesay, NB

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Ms. Donnelly, for your presentation. It's a very interesting and very important topic.

I'm from Atlantic Canada, from Saint John. I used to work in the aquaculture industry in St. George in Charlotte County, and I was very involved in the sales and marketing side in many fish plants.

Mr. Zimmer, I think, was talking about different unemployment rates in different regions. For example, say in one area there's a 12.5% unemployment rate. At times I feel that's misleading, because there are many people in those plants who have open claims but they don't actually draw benefits, so they're listed as unemployed but they're actually working.

I just want to get your comments or your thoughts on that. Do you agree with that?

4:35 p.m.

Commissioner for Workers, Canada Employment Insurance Commission, Department of Employment and Social Development

Mary-Lou Donnelly

I do agree with that. It's often difficult to get those exact statistics, but I think that's why it all has to be looked at. I think we'd get better numbers if we knew, truly.... I think it would be good to look at having more uniform entrance requirements for EI benefits across the country and at changing how those numbers are counted.

4:35 p.m.

Liberal

Wayne Long Liberal Saint John—Rothesay, NB

Just to dive in a little deeper, how could that be fixed, though? How could you fix that?

4:35 p.m.

Commissioner for Workers, Canada Employment Insurance Commission, Department of Employment and Social Development

Mary-Lou Donnelly

Actually, that particular question is not something that we've had the opportunity to really look at, so I don't have an answer for that right now. But I think it's interesting that you raised it, so we'll certainly turn our minds to it.

4:35 p.m.

Liberal

Wayne Long Liberal Saint John—Rothesay, NB

I've seen that a lot in the plants I've been involved with. Sometimes those rates are misleading.

4:35 p.m.

Commissioner for Workers, Canada Employment Insurance Commission, Department of Employment and Social Development

Mary-Lou Donnelly

I think that's another reason why we shouldn't have all those economic regions and different rates across the country.

I go back to the example of Prince Edward Island, where they took a very small geographically situated island and split the economic rate, so my neighbour, with whom I worked in the same plant, could have more access to EI, longer access to EI, than I could, simply because I was living on the edge of Charlottetown, the urban area, and she was living at the edge of the rural area. I think that is a reason and perhaps that is one of the ways we could get better figures on unemployment rates.

4:35 p.m.

Liberal

Wayne Long Liberal Saint John—Rothesay, NB

I can cite an example where literally somebody on one side of the street got 16 weeks of benefits and somebody across the street got 29.

4:35 p.m.

Commissioner for Workers, Canada Employment Insurance Commission, Department of Employment and Social Development

Mary-Lou Donnelly

It doesn't make sense.

4:35 p.m.

Liberal

Wayne Long Liberal Saint John—Rothesay, NB

Thank you.

I just want to go back to some of the changes made to the EI program under the previous government. They redefined the terms “reasonable and customary efforts to obtain....employment” and “suitable employment” in terms of the kinds of employment EI recipients would be required to accept. The expectation obviously at that point was that it would increase job-search efforts and would make them try to find work or go back to work quickly. Do you feel that's happened?

4:35 p.m.

Commissioner for Workers, Canada Employment Insurance Commission, Department of Employment and Social Development

Mary-Lou Donnelly

No, I'll tell you what that did. That put undue pressure on claimants who are already in a terribly stressful situation because they've lost their jobs. They have a mortgage. They have a car. They have a family. They have children in university. They have everything else, every bill that you and I have. It was seen as punitive for workers.

I had somebody ask me if I knew that when you're on EI you feel as if you've done something wrong. That really hit home for me. I think that probably the reasonable and suitable employment, the CCAJ as we refer to it—connecting Canadians to available jobs—was probably the most talked-about issue among my stakeholders since 2012 and how demeaning those changes made them feel. Even if they didn't lose their benefits because of the changes it was still the whole stigma hanging over them. To say now they have to accept this job at 70% less, and by the way if they're a seasonal worker they only get six weeks to look for a job, I can't tell you how that affected the claimants, and these are the people who pay into EI and who trusted that EI would be there for them when they needed it.

Did it make them get back to work any more quickly? I don't believe it did. As I said earlier I believe that 99% of people who are not working and who should be working want to be working. When you're not working you don't just lose your money you lose your sense of empowerment, your sense of dignity, your sense of pride in your community, within your family. It goes on and on. Do most people want to be working? Absolutely.

4:40 p.m.

Liberal

Wayne Long Liberal Saint John—Rothesay, NB

Just one more follow-up, did you see the results that you observed vary by province, by region, by gender?

4:40 p.m.

Commissioner for Workers, Canada Employment Insurance Commission, Department of Employment and Social Development

Mary-Lou Donnelly

The biggest difference I probably saw was with the seasonal workers in the Atlantic provinces and in Quebec. Quebec was very much a part of that as well as the seasonal workers. Yes, I would say that was different from what I saw out west until now, and now we're seeing a difference out west and we're hearing a lot of difficult challenges for folks out west.

4:40 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bryan May

Thank you very much. Do you have one last thought?

4:40 p.m.

Commissioner for Workers, Canada Employment Insurance Commission, Department of Employment and Social Development

Mary-Lou Donnelly

There was a wonderful segment on CBC's The Current with Anna Maria Tremonti. She was in Newfoundland talking mostly to the men who had gone out west to work and the effect that it had on the family. She was interviewing the wives and the children as well as interviewing these men when they're forced to do that and then come home. It was very interesting. It's certainly something that we talk about because of the difficulties on family life around having to do that. Now when they're losing their jobs they need to be able to come home and access EI more easily.

4:40 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bryan May

Thank you, Ms. Donnelly.

Ms. Amyot, we didn't hear much from you, but you gave good moral support. Thank you, and again I deeply apologize for cutting this short today but I learned a lot. I believe we had some good discussion here. Please accept our thanks from the committee for appearing today.

4:40 p.m.

Commissioner for Workers, Canada Employment Insurance Commission, Department of Employment and Social Development

Mary-Lou Donnelly

I had earlier referenced that I gave you the summary, but I have a longer paper on it that is being translated. Once you get that if there are any questions that we didn't have the opportunity to get to—you have my card as well—please send an email and I would be more than happy to talk to you about it. Thank you, everyone. Good luck in what you do.

4:40 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bryan May

We will take you up on that. Thank you very much.

The committee will take, literally, a less than two-minute break while they get the video set up for our next panel. We have a video conference from Toronto as part of our panel, so don't go anywhere. We're going to get going and try to get back on time.

4:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bryan May

It looks like we have the video up and running, so could we take our seats and get going?

Hello, everybody.

Just so that everyone is on the same page, first of all, again, I apologize for the delay today. We had a vote in the House.

Thank you to all the witnesses: Mr. Gray, Mr. Busby, and direct from Toronto, Mr. Kelly. Thank you for being here today. We are going to get started with your statements right away and go through the questions. We hope to be finishing around 5:30 p.m. If we are engaged in some pretty heavy questions then we may go a few minutes late. I do recognize that everybody around this table has other commitments after today's meeting so we'll try to respect that as best we can and get through the business as quickly as possible.

Without any more pomp and ceremony, I will turn it over to this panel. Who is speaking first?

Mr. Gray. Thank you for being here.

March 9th, 2016 / 4:45 p.m.

Dr. David Gray Professor of Economics, University of Ottawa, As an Individual

Thank you very much for inviting me to appear before your committee.

I believe I have 10 minutes. Is that correct?

4:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bryan May

I would say five to seven. There are three of you here.

4:45 p.m.

Professor of Economics, University of Ottawa, As an Individual

Dr. David Gray

I've organized my comments around recent statements from Minister Mihychuk and from a statement made by honourable members of Parliament Ms. Trudel and Ms. Ashton on behalf of the New Democratic Party.

First of all, I have long been in favour of abolishing the NERE requirement, and it doesn't seem as though there's much argument about that anymore. It would be a lot easier to analyze the impact of the NEREs and to try to track their behaviour and their outcomes in the labour market had the survey of labour income dynamics not been abolished. The survey of labour income dynamics of Statistics Canada was discontinued because of very severe budget cuts at Statistics Canada. They have made it harder to deal with some of these pressing issues, such as temporary foreign workers and employment insurance reform.

As for those workers who might accept or might have to accept a lower-paying job after they've been displaced, a number of years ago I did a study for what is now Employment and Social Development Canada concerning wage insurance, which would be a different use of the employment insurance fund whereby someone could accept—hopefully temporarily—a lower-paying job and be indemnified for part of their wage loss, rather than be totally indemnified for their employment loss for only a limited number of weeks at 100%. It's basically insurance on a sliding scale for your lost earnings. I would be quite enthusiastic about a pilot project to try that out.

The minister mentioned a parental benefits system. I think economists have long thought that parental benefits and maternity, paternity, and adoption benefits should be totally removed from the EI system. They're only there for administrative convenience. There's a totally different story going on. I think they should be placed in a separate funding envelope in a different system.

I was very glad to hear Ms. Donnelly talk enthusiastically about the labour market development agreements and passive benefits—retraining, labour market information, job counselling, etc.—but we still have to acknowledge that we don't know an awful lot about which of these interventions work and are really helping workers and which ones don't work. That's true for other countries as well. I'm all for expanding funding for EI part II, but we still need to do a lot of research and run experiments to figure out how to get the biggest bang for the buck in helping unemployed workers in Canada.

The minister also mentioned the work-sharing provision. This is something I researched quite a bit in the past. The program has been totally dormant for years now, but I fear that the downturn in oil prices and commodity prices is far too long for the wage-sharing provision to really apply.

The minister also talked about a desire to keep payroll taxes low. I'm all in favour of that as well, because they impinge upon the demand for workers. This shouldn't just be aimed at small employers. I think we really shouldn't, particularly for payroll taxes, differentiate according to the size of employers.

I'll move on to the proposal by the New Democratic Party for uniform entry requirements. Ms. Donnelly was talking about that. I am all in favour of this. Certainly today we would never reach agreement about what that threshold should be, but I'm definitely in favour of uniform entry requirements. Yet I also think they should be coupled with uniform benefit entitlement periods.

We should make it easily accessible for everyone across the country. Under normal conditions the benefit period should be the same for everyone as well, with the exception of what they do in the United States. In the United States they lengthen the benefit entitlement period or duration during recessions like 2008 and 2009. Even the United States, generally very stingy when it comes to unemployment insurance, greatly extended the benefits when there was a terrible, negative shock to the entire labour market. I think we can have extended benefits in those situations. Ms. Donnelly was absolutely correct. I think we're just about the only country on this planet that has these variable entry requirements and extended benefits on a regional basis.

We should lower entry requirements, yes. I'm all in favour of that. Exactly what the number is, I wouldn't dare answer that without much more research. That will cast the net a bit wider as far as access is concerned.

A point that was raised during the last session is that we certainly do not want to encourage, subsidize, or develop further seasonal or frequent use of the system. I would want to see safeguards so that we don't take new entrants into the Canadian labour force and have these new entrants or re-entrants develop dependency patterns on the EI regime.

4:55 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bryan May

Thank you very much.

Mr. Busby.

4:55 p.m.

Colin Busby Associate Director, Research, C.D. Howe Institute

I thought I had 10 minutes, but I'll try to cut it down.

Thank you, Mr. Chair and honourable members, for the invitation to be here today. I plan to spend roughly half of my time talking about recent changes to the EI program, particularly the more controversial pieces. I want to spend the other half of my time talking about the topic of EI access, which I understand the committee is interested in. I'm going to focus my comments mainly on the concept of regular benefits.

Two recent changes to EI in particular have received a tremendous amount of public attention. They are the connecting Canadians with available jobs initiative and the variable best weeks approach to calculating EI benefits.

In 2012, Bill C-38 included the connecting Canadians with available jobs initiative. Its intention was to ensure that unemployed Canadians would be better connected with Canadian jobs—jobs in their local area—and to clarify their responsibility to undertake a reasonable job search for suitable employment while receiving benefits.

I think the first two aspects of the reforms, which intend to improve labour market information and job matching with employers, and ensure that temporary foreign workers are not replacing Canadian workers, are reasonably admirable aspects of the policy, and I think they have reasonably broad support.

The aspect of the reform that obviously bolstered the responsibility of workers to undertake a reasonable job search did, however, spark a considerable uproar. The new rules, as most of you know, set different job search efforts and requirements, as well as willingness to accept job vacancies based on categories of claimants.

On one end of the scale, frequent claimants are required to face stronger search processes earlier on in their claims, whereas what are called long-tenured workers—workers with very little history with EI—face pressures that really pick up later on in their claims but also start off a little bit more rigorously than they used to.

I think it would be fair to classify these rules as what economists traditionally refer to as a type of experience rating, which is meant to adjust the parameters of the program based on one's history as a way of discouraging dependence and reliance on the program. However, I would argue that this is a very watered down and convoluted type of experience rating. There is probably a good reason as to why. There is a very long history of trying to implement experience rating in employment insurance in Canada and to gradually reduce the dependence of seasonal industry workers on the program, although nearly all attempts to do so have been reversed.

Employer-based experience rating was deemed too politically difficult to implement in the early 1990s, and employee-based experience rating, introduced in the late 1990s, which alters benefits according to history, was reversed in 2001 under intense pressure, pressure that remains to this day. For instance, in 2012, when these changes were announced, the Atlantic Canadian premiers held a joint press conference to criticize the changes. I'm going point out that most troubling here is really just how modest these reforms are. I will go on to discuss how I think it portrays a really rather sober context for the possibilities of widespread EI reform in Canada.

I think there is indeed significant evidence supporting the rationale for the announced reforms. A large number of EI claimants likely do not fulfill their job search obligations while collecting benefits. A study by HRSDC, currently ESDC, calculated in a reasonably conservative way that around 15% of EI regular claimants did not look for work while receiving benefits and did not have a good reason for not doing so. Of these individuals, the vast majority, around 85%, were waiting to be recalled to a former job. In other words, they were waiting for seasonal employment to recommence.

In fiscal year 2013-14, the year in which the new rules came into effect, there were around 1,080 total disentitlements because claimants failed to search for work or refused suitable employment. These represent only 0.08% or around one-tenth of 1% of all EI regular and fishing claims that year. Further, the number of additional disentitlements relative to the prior year was 580, which makes for a total impact of one-twentieth of 1% of all EI claims.

Prior EI monitoring assessment reports have highlighted that a deeper review is under way and should have been completed by the end of 2015. I have no access to those documents, but I'm sure the clerk and your analysts are well ahead of me in getting their hands on them, and I strongly encourage the committee to get their hands on that work prior to coming up with the recommendation.

There are indications that those changes might have been very expensive given the results that we've seen and the intended behavioural changes. The greater issue I have with the prior reform is that not only does it appear to have a limited influence in dealing with the issue of frequent claimants, but it has made the administration of the system much more complex and cumbersome.

Furthermore, it's not clear to me as to why long-tenured workers, who have no history or very little history of claiming EI, should fall under stricter rules than those that existed prior to reform. There is no evidence to suggest that these workers are at risk of becoming frequent claimants, plus there is every indication that these workers have high attachment to the labour force.

Now to the question of EI access, and I'll be brief.

As this committee goes forward, I want to point out that these concepts are fraught with pitfalls and conventional misunderstandings, so one must be very careful when framing the issue of EI eligibility and EI access. The oft-mentioned 40% figure refers to the ratio of EI beneficiaries to unemployed Canadians. It is a snapshot of the number of workers receiving EI benefits divided by the number of individuals who are unemployed. This ratio is, however, just simply an indicator of how large the federal role in overall income support programs is, independent of the EI program's role as an insurance program against unexpected job loss.

It is true that relative to the 1970s and 1980s the federal role in overall income support programs is smaller today. But this is true mainly because there have been important changes to the composition of unemployed workers and because of reforms to the program in the 1990s. There have been no large changes to EI access criteria since the mid-1990s, and there's been no movement in the beneficiaries-to-unemployed ratio since then.