Evidence of meeting #100 for Human Resources, Skills and Social Development and the Status of Persons with Disabilities in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was income.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Pierre-Claude Poulin  Responsible for the Income and Taxation Committee for Retirees Without an Employer Pension, Association québécoise de défense des droits des personnes retraitées et préretraitées
Alessandro Casbarro  Co-Founder, Bridges of Love York Region
Laura Tamblyn Watts  Chief Executive Officer, CanAge
Aiman Malhi  Policy Officer, CanAge
Isobel Mackenzie  Seniors Advocate, Office of the Seniors Advocate of British Columbia
Clerk of the Committee  Ms. Ariane Calvert

February 12th, 2024 / 5:05 p.m.

Isobel Mackenzie Seniors Advocate, Office of the Seniors Advocate of British Columbia

Thank you very much, and thank you to the committee for inviting my testimony.

I am the seniors advocate for the Province of British Columbia. This is a statutory office of the provincial government with a legislated mandate to monitor services to seniors, undertake systemic reviews and make recommendations to government on how to improve supports and services for B.C. seniors. In addition to health care, housing and transportation, income support is also included within my mandate.

Currently, for the most part, it is the federal government that has assumed the role of providing an income for retired Canadians through the old age security, the guaranteed income supplement and the Canada pension plan.

I'm just going to give some quantification or numbers to some of the stories that previous speakers, like Laura, and speakers in previous sessions spoke to.

A Canadian retiree who is wholly dependent on their public pensions—meaning they're getting the average amount of CPP and getting a little bit of GIS and OAS—will have an annual income of $24,000 if they're 75 and under, or a little bit more than $25,000 if they're over 75.

If a senior has very little or no CPP, they'll receive the maximum GIS, and their total income will be $22,500 if they're under 75, or $23,400 if they're 75 and older.

I want to point out that in all cases, the income they will receive is well below the income of a person who's working at minimum wage in any territory or province in this country.

Most Canadian retirees do provide some private pension, either from their RRSP or their workplace pension, but the additional amount is very limited, as the overall median income—so 50% of seniors in this country—is very low.

In British Columbia, which mirrors Canada for the most part, the median income of a senior is $33,000. In our province, that is still below minimum wage, the rate at which 6% of the labour force is employed. Most stunningly, it is 65% lower than the median income of the working-age population aged 35 to 55.

Many have referred to the market-based measure of poverty, and Aiman did that as well. I would challenge that it is not the best tool to look at. Laura has spoken to some of the reasons why, but there's another reason, which is that it is a threshold where, if you're a dollar above it, you're off. When you look at seniors, they are very clustered around that poverty line. Therefore, it's counterintuitive that 7% of seniors live in poverty as defined by the market-based measure, but almost half of seniors are living on an income below minimum wage. I think that is something that is underestimated by a lot of policy-makers.

Using median incomes—not average, because they reflect a small group of higher income-earning seniors—is arguably a better measure of the actual poverty within our seniors population.

Those who have testified before me have spoken of the challenges that seniors are facing with the rising costs and with incomes that are not able to keep pace with inflation. Laura has told you the story of the senior in Ottawa, and the speakers in the session before me were also talking a lot about that.

My office does hear increasingly from seniors around affordability issues, most particularly food. For those who rent, it's the cost of rental housing, which is not surprising, given that B.C. is home to the most expensive housing market in the country.

We also do hear from a large number of seniors on dental care costs, which is why I'm so very pleased with the new federal dental plan, and I expect that this will address many of the concerns we've been hearing.

The stories we hear of seniors living with very limited incomes are, of course, very distressing. The numbers would indicate that these experiences are not only very real but being felt by a larger number of seniors than we might anticipate, particularly those two out of 10 seniors who are renters, not homeowners.

Obviously, I wholly support the provisions of Bill C-319 to raise the OAS for those aged 65 to 75 by 10%, for all of the reasons the previous speaker has spoken of, and I don't need to repeat those.

What I would do is further challenge the committee members to use their influence to look at including CPP in the earnings exemption.

In the previous session, one of your members spoke to providing an incentive for people over 65 who are able to work to continue to work. That's why we have the earnings exemption for GIS. That's true, and that's one way of looking at it. The other way of looking at it is that we're penalizing those who can't work.

To put this in perspective, if I am 66 years of age, and if I defer my CPP and I earn $6,500 a year from employment, my total income will be $27,400. That's my OAS, my top GIS and my $6,500 in employment income.

If I am 72 years of age—

5:10 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bobby Morrissey

Ms. Mackenzie, you're well over the five minutes. If you have points you'd like to raise, I'm sure you'll get questions and you can address them then.

5:10 p.m.

Seniors Advocate, Office of the Seniors Advocate of British Columbia

Isobel Mackenzie

I'm sorry; I'll leave it there.

5:10 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bobby Morrissey

Before we move to the question round, I'd like to remind committee members that we have resources until six o'clock, which is our two-hour time slot, and it's my intention to go until six o'clock.

Mrs. Roberts, you have the floor for six minutes.

5:10 p.m.

Conservative

Anna Roberts Conservative King—Vaughan, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to the witnesses.

I'm going to throw out a question to both of you. I agree with both of you that the MBM, which is how we measure products and poverty, has to be looked at.

One question I'd like to ask both of you is this. I agree that the cost of living is out of control, but it's out of control because of the wasteful spending that this current Liberal government has strapped us with—all of the taxpayers. I just spoke to a senior this past weekend who couldn't even afford to put gas in her car. She's 74 years old and got a little part-time job but couldn't pay for the gas. Now it's going up April 1.

Do you agree that we have to control our spending if we expect our seniors to live their retirement life in comfort?

5:10 p.m.

Chief Executive Officer, CanAge

Laura Tamblyn Watts

Perhaps I'll jump in on that first. Thank you very much, member.

I certainly do hear from our members at CanAge that the cost of living is profoundly concerning, and transportation is one of those costs that are going up. Again, the cost of food has been skyrocketing. The cost of housing in some urban centres in Canada has gone up 40% in the last two years alone. All of this is conflated with the pressure that people have right now because our boomer generation is the most indebted generation we've ever had.

A lot of our traditional understandings about what people can afford have gone out of the window since this increase was brought in by the government in 2021-22. That's one of the big pieces that I want to add.

Yes, I would offer that gasoline costs are one of those costs, but they are added to a broader cost—

5:15 p.m.

Conservative

Anna Roberts Conservative King—Vaughan, ON

I'm sorry; I'm short on time.

I want to pass on the rest of my time to my colleague MP Tracy Gray. She has a few questions, so I'm going to pass it on to her.

Thank you.

5:15 p.m.

Conservative

Tracy Gray Conservative Kelowna—Lake Country, BC

Thank you very much.

My questions are for Ms. Mackenzie.

You produced a report called “BC Seniors: Falling Further Behind” in September 2022. This report states that 84% of B.C. seniors are “running out of money to buy food some of the time with 16% of them reporting this happens 'all' or 'most' of the time”.

Are you finding that more seniors continue to run out of money to buy food?

5:15 p.m.

Seniors Advocate, Office of the Seniors Advocate of British Columbia

Isobel Mackenzie

The short answer is yes. You're quoting from a survey we did of our lower-income seniors in British Columbia, those who are in receipt of the B.C. low-income senior's supplement. They would also be in receipt of the GIS. Those are the seniors who are experiencing the biggest challenge. Food costs are something that they are acutely aware of because it is something they experience, if not on a daily basis, on a weekly basis.

5:15 p.m.

Conservative

Tracy Gray Conservative Kelowna—Lake Country, BC

Thank you very much.

Your report also states that 95% of seniors live in their own homes. With inflation and the cost of living crisis, are you concerned that many seniors won't be able to afford to stay in their home?

5:15 p.m.

Seniors Advocate, Office of the Seniors Advocate of British Columbia

Isobel Mackenzie

Yes. Remember that most seniors are homeowners, although arguably the ones at greatest financial risk are those who are renters. When we look at those who are homeowners and the breadth of the value of that home ownership across the province, there's a marked difference between the urban and the rural in terms of their overall financial resources. I'm producing a report due out later this week on rural seniors in British Columbia.

When you look at the cost of insurance, heating and home maintenance—which, as we age, we're not able to provide for ourselves anymore and we need to hire people to do—these are all going to impact a senior's ability to live in their own home.

I think there can be a role for government, whether it's federal or provincial, to provide a program that would allow seniors, in a more fluid and straightforward way—

5:15 p.m.

Conservative

Tracy Gray Conservative Kelowna—Lake Country, BC

Thank you very much. My time is very limited.

I want to squeeze in one more quick question.

Your report also showed 41% of seniors naming gas prices as the biggest transportation cost they face in getting where they need to go. Do you believe the federal government's plan to continue to increase taxes on gas will see more seniors finding it more difficult to afford gas?

5:15 p.m.

Seniors Advocate, Office of the Seniors Advocate of British Columbia

Isobel Mackenzie

I think any of the factors that are going to contribute to the rising fuel costs will have an impact on those who are challenged in being able to afford the gas, yes.

5:15 p.m.

Conservative

Tracy Gray Conservative Kelowna—Lake Country, BC

That's great. Thank you very much.

Just because our time is limited here today, I'd like to turn this over to my colleague Mr. Aitchison.

Thank you.

5:15 p.m.

Conservative

Scott Aitchison Conservative Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON

I'm going to be quick, Mr. Chair.

I want this to be quick because I want to get back to the witnesses. We have a motion on notice and, at the risk of my friend across the way talking us out, I want us to get to a quick vote on it.

The motion reads:

That the Standing Committee on Human Resources, Skills and Social Development and the Status of Persons with Disabilities undertake a study in accordance with Standing Order 108(2) of no less than eight meetings on housing, homelessness, and tent cities in Canada, and that the committee give priority to this study, upon the completion of the committee's work on Bill C-319.

I am moving that motion.

We've talked about this. It's been on notice, and I know that the NDP was eager to have a debate in the House on this very issue. I think this would be an appropriate place for us to have a more in-depth discussion about the situation.

I'm hopeful that we can move quickly on this and then get back to the witnesses on this important study.

5:15 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bobby Morrissey

Thank you.

The motion is in order. It was circulated within the timeline and it is in both official languages.

Is there any discussion?

Mr. Fragiskatos, go ahead on the motion.

5:20 p.m.

Liberal

Peter Fragiskatos Liberal London North Centre, ON

Can I have it read one more time, Chair?

5:20 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bobby Morrissey

Yes.

Madam Clerk, could you read the motion?

5:20 p.m.

The Clerk of the Committee Ms. Ariane Calvert

It reads:

That the Standing Committee on Human Resources, Skills and Social Development and the Status of Persons with Disabilities undertake a study in accordance with Standing Order 108(2) of no less than eight meetings on housing, homelessness, and tent cities in Canada, and that the committee give priority to this study, upon the completion of the committee's work on Bill C-319.

5:20 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bobby Morrissey

Mr. Fragiskatos.

5:20 p.m.

Liberal

Peter Fragiskatos Liberal London North Centre, ON

I wish to introduce the following amendment, Chair.

I'll read it slowly for translation, but the clerk will have the email, as well. I move:

That the Standing Committee on Human Resources, Skills and Social Development and the Status of Persons with Disabilities undertake a study in accordance with Standing Order 108(2), of no less than 4 meetings, on the role played by the lack of investments in purpose-built rental, affordable, social, rent-geared-to-income, and co-op housing by successive federal governments in creating the housing and homelessness crisis, as well as tent cities in Canada;

That, with regard to federal housing investments between February 1, 2006, and October 1, 2015, this study include particular consideration of the following questions:

(a) how much federal funding was provided to support the construction of non-profit or community housing and how many units were developed;

(b) how much federal funding was provided to support the construction of co-operative housing and how many units were developed; and

(c) how much federal funding was provided to support the construction of purpose-built rental housing and how many units were developed;

That the committee report its findings to the House; and that, pursuant to Standing Order 109, the government table a comprehensive response thereto.

I move that we go to a vote, Chair.

5:20 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bobby Morrissey

It's still debatable, Mr. Fragiskatos.

Is the amendment in order, Madam Clerk?

I'm going to suspend the meeting for a couple of moments while I consult with the clerk.

5:25 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bobby Morrissey

Committee members, I call the meeting back to order.

Madame Chabot, I will give you the floor. It is my understanding that you have a point of order.

5:25 p.m.

Bloc

Louise Chabot Bloc Thérèse-De Blainville, QC

That's right, Mr. Chair.

I believe the proposed amendment is out of order because it would amend the motion in a significant way. I consider it a separate motion rather than an amendment. It should therefore not be accepted as an amendment to the main motion. It should rather be moved as another motion, if the mover wishes, in due form and within the prescribed deadlines.

5:25 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bobby Morrissey

Thank you, Madame Chabot. That is a point of order.

I will rule on the point of order. I do agree with Madame Chabot that the amendment changes or overlaps the original motion. I rule the amendment out of order.

Go ahead, Mr. Arya. My ruling is non-debatable. You can challenge it.