Human Resources Committee on April 11th, 2024

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you, Mr. Boulerice.

Ms. Gray, you have five minutes, please.

[Tracy Gray, Conservative, Kelowna—Lake Country, BC]

Great. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to all of the witnesses for being here.

I just want to comment quickly that's it's great to have interpretation in person. This meeting is functioning very well compared with some other meetings. Thank you to whomever set that up.

I want to talk about recent news that the unemployment rate in Canada jumped to 6.1% in March from 5.8% in February. This 6.1% is a full percentage point over a year ago. I'm wondering if this is something you're concerned with and are hearing about from your members. Are there concerns with this trend of the unemployment rate going up and of workers losing their jobs?

Mr. Ashton from the International Longshore and Warehouse Union Canada, could you maybe answer that first?

[Robert Ashton]

I don't mean to be rude, but I don't see the relevance to Bill C-58 when it comes to the unemployment rate in Canada. We're here to talk about anti-scab legislation, not the unemployment rate.

I am not here to give one political party or another political party the ability to score points, one against the other, so I'll decline to comment.

Thank you.

[Tracy Gray, Conservative, Kelowna—Lake Country, BC]

Okay. Well, this has to do with workers losing their jobs. It was strictly about workers losing their jobs.

Maybe I'll go to the United Steelworkers Union to see if you've heard concerns about workers losing their jobs.

[Marty Warren]

No. I agree with the last witness as well: I really want to focus on the bill.

No, we haven't heard that at all. Our members aren't talking about that. We haven't suffered any major turndowns. I'll leave it at that.

Again, it comes down to how you calculate unemployment and how the U.S. does it. You hear from some, “Oh, look at the U.S.” Well, each calculation is different. I'll leave it at that. That's for our research department and experts to speak on—not me, quite frankly.

[Tracy Gray, Conservative, Kelowna—Lake Country, BC]

Okay. Thank you for that.

Actually, that brings me to the other point, that the U.S. rate has actually gone down and Canada's has gone up. Surely you work with other organizations cross-border. There is a lot of interconnection between our trade and with our supply chains. I wanted to see if you had a sense of where that might be coming from.

I'm not sure if you have any comment on that. It's just concerning that we're turning one way and the U.S. another. I just wanted to get a sense of whether you're hearing any comments on that at all.

No...?

[Marty Warren]

The short answer is no. Again, it's my understanding that in Canada and the U.S. the math behind it is different, so the comparison is probably apples to oranges. I'll leave it at that.

[Tracy Gray, Conservative, Kelowna—Lake Country, BC]

Okay. Great. Thank you very much.

The other thing we heard about at a previous meeting from some labour representatives was that the replacement of workers by outsourcing work to contractors and consultants can make workers feel undervalued and create stress. It can affect workers' mental wellness when outside contractors are basically doing work they could be doing. Perhaps there could be an expansion of the workforce, but instead you have these outside consultants.

Mr. Warren, perhaps I'll go to you first. I'm wondering if you have any thoughts on this that you might want to share.

[Marty Warren]

The comment I would make on that is that there is no doubt about the stress on workers when they see scabs crossing the picket line. Go to a picket line where scabs aren't crossing the picket line; it's a very settled picket line. They're doing what they're doing with their right to protest and with their right to do what they do.

Then go where there are scabs crossing the picket line; it's emotional and it's ugly. It's like people are stealing their livelihood from them and their families and children.

The other thing about scabs, which came up before, is that in Canada, a thousand workers die each year on the job. Why are you now going to start bringing in unskilled, barely trained people? Is it worth the life of a worker so that some business can make 10 more widgets while their workers are outside instead of going to the collective bargaining table and reaching an agreement?

[Tracy Gray, Conservative, Kelowna—Lake Country, BC]

I know I only have only a couple of seconds here. There is a national day recognizing workers who have lost their jobs, and I think we should all recognize that. Thank you for bringing that up.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you, Ms. Gray.

Mr. Long, go ahead for five minutes.

[Wayne Long, Liberal, Saint John—Rothesay, NB]

Thank you, Chair, and good morning.

Good morning to my colleagues.

Thank you to our witnesses this morning.

I think if there's ever been an example of a party that doesn't want to talk about legislation, Canadians can see that today. The Conservative Party wants to talk about everything but this legislation. I am not going to talk about how a turkey cost $100 two years ago and I bought one for $35 two weeks ago. I am not going to talk about that.

Ms. Senneville, my question for you is this: Bill C-377 and Bill C-525 were two stunning pieces of legislation that the Conservative Party brought forth when it was in government that were absolutely detrimental and devastating to unions.

I would like you to talk to us, for the record, about Bill C-377 and Bill C-525 and tell us what they did to unions. I want you to also comment on Bill C-58 and how important it is. I want you to dispel the myth that unions want to strike.

[Caroline Senneville]

Bill C‑377 and Bill C‑525 were both anti-union bills, in our view. They were aimed at making unionization more difficult and, once unions were formed, at reducing their scope of action. In our opinion, this violates the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms, which, I repeat, guarantees the right of association.

As I said at the outset, Bill C‑58 will indeed transform the world of work and its vision in Canada. That is not insignificant.

In Quebec, the statistics are looked at every year. We saw that after the adoption of anti-scab legislation in 1977, the number of strikes didn't increase. What has decreased is violence and the number of ambulances on picket lines.

[Wayne Long, Liberal, Saint John—Rothesay, NB]

Thank you for that.

Mr. Ashton, my riding is in Saint John, New Brunswick. It is a proud port city. I have a great relationship with ILA 273 and Terry Wilson there. We do many wonderful things together.

I want you to talk to me about your experience. You said, in your own words, obviously, that strikes and lockouts aren't easy. They're a last resort for unions. Sometimes I get the feeling from my colleagues across in the Conservative Party that unions want to strike, but that couldn't be further from the truth.

I know you just went through a strike. I wonder if you can share your experience with us. Thank you.

[Robert Ashton]

Thank you. Terry is a good friend of mine. He's a great trade unionist. I love the guy. He's a fantastic person.

Strikes are actually horrible things to go through. In the longshore division in British Columbia, we just went through a 13-day strike. My members did not get paid for one day. My bargaining committee didn't get paid for one day. The changes and the effects they have on families are detrimental in the worst way. People can lose their houses, and if the strikes are long enough, people, through mental illness, can lose their lives. Strikes are the last choice for workers in unions.

We want a fairly negotiated collective agreement at the table, and reached as fast as can be done, surprisingly, so we can carry on with our business, and our business is doing our job—period, end of story.

In the Maritimes sector when we deal with our employer associations, a lot of us don't see our employers at the table; we see a third party at the table, so we can't have direct conversations with them. That's what drags things out and causes the issues at the bargaining table, because we're not allowed to have direct conversations with our direct employers because the third parties won't bring them in.

That slows bargaining down and creates a problem at the table, which, in our last round of bargaining, was what caused the 13-day strike. Every one of my members voted individually for their families, for a better life and for a freely negotiated collective agreement. For every worker in Canada who votes to go on strike, it is the last thing they want to do.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you, Mr. Ashton.

Thank you, Mr. Long.

Ms. Chabot, you have the floor for two and a half minutes.

[Louise Chabot, Bloc, Thérèse-De Blainville, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Ms. Senneville, you represent members in a number of sectors, including telecommunications. Here we have Videotron unionized employees who have been locked out since October. It's all the call centres. The employer can use scabs, in accordance with current federal legislation, since the jobs are being outsourced.

When we talk about the right to strike, it is essential to prevent the use of replacement workers. How important is that to you in terms of ensuring harmonious labour relations?

[Caroline Senneville]

Indeed, such measures allow workers to focus on bargaining, rather than holding the picket line. When we reach a negotiated settlement, it leads to industrial peace. That's what we concentrate on.

The difference between a democratic society and an undemocratic one is that the right to strike is upheld. Even if going on strike is hard, even if it is a last resort, it is still important in order to move certain things forward in society.

[Louise Chabot, Bloc, Thérèse-De Blainville, QC]

I would like to point out that we have the same concern with the fact that the bill will be implemented 18 months after royal assent. During the clause-by-clause study of the bill that will take place in May, we will be proposing the removal of that implementation deadline.

On the government side, though, the minister seems to be very keen on keeping the 18-month timeframe. The Canada Labour Relations Board needs that time, as I understand.

What are your thoughts on that?

[Caroline Senneville]

We must do everything we can to bring this bill into force as quickly as possible. As we say in French, where there's a will, there's a way.

[Louise Chabot, Bloc, Thérèse-De Blainville, QC]

Thank you, Ms. Senneville.

Mr. Warren, what do you think about the labour dispute experienced by Quebec workers in which replacement workers were paid three times as much as employees? The dispute lasted a year. I am also thinking of the workers who left their jobs in boat towing for other work. Their expertise is lost.

Could you comment on how important this bill is to prevent that from happening in the future?

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Give a very short answer.

[Marty Warren]

How you prevent it is with federal anti-scab legislation.

Quickly on that point, that was an attack on steelworkers and their families. It was trying to crush the union versus trying to bargain a collective agreement.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you, Ms. Chabot.

We'll now go to Mr. Boulerice for two and a half minutes.

[Alexandre Boulerice, NDP, Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'm going to ask all the witnesses the same question. I will try to be brief, since I only have two and a half minutes.

The tone will be quite different in the next hour. We are going to hear a lot of people say that national economic interests should count as an exception to allow replacement workers.

In your opinion, what danger and pitfalls does such a criterion represent for workers' rights?

I'll start with you, Mr. Warren.