Human Resources Committee on Feb. 10th, 2023

[The Chair (Mr. Robert Morrissey (Egmont, Lib.)), Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

I call the meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 54 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Human Resources, Skills and Social Development and the Status of Persons with Disabilities.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2), the committee will commence its study of service standards for passport renewal.

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format, pursuant to the House order of June 23, 2022. That means members are attending in person in the room as well as virtually.

To ensure an orderly meeting, for those attending in person, please raise your hand to get my attention. For those attending virtually, please use the “raise hand” icon on your screen to get my attention. When I recognize you, you will then have the floor.

You have the option of choosing to participate in the official language of your choice. For those appearing virtually, the option is at the bottom of your screen. If there's a breakdown in interpretation services, please get my attention. We'll suspend while it is being corrected.

As we have followed a practice that is now part of the process, for anybody who is appearing virtually without a recognized House of Commons approved headset, I will not recognize you to participate verbally in the discussion. You would have the option of voting but not participating.

In accordance with our routine motion, I have been advised that all the witnesses have been tested. We do have one issue with a departmental official whose sound quality is not adequate for interpretation.

I would like to welcome everybody and our witnesses.

Appearing first is the Honourable Karina Gould, Minister of Families, Children and Social Development. Welcome, Minister.

From the Department of Employment and Social Development, we have Jean-François Tremblay, deputy minister, and Mary Ann Triggs, assistant deputy minister with Service Canada.

Members, Ms. Triggs is the one with the issue on the sound quality, so she will not be able to respond to your questions.

Also with us is Cliff Groen, the department's business lead in benefits delivery modernization.

We will begin with opening remarks from Minister Gould for five minutes or less.

Minister, you have the floor.

[Karina Gould, Liberal, Minister of Families]

Good morning.

Thank you very much, Chair and committee, for having me here today.

First, I think it is important to recognize that for decades the process of applying for and receiving a passport in Canada was one of the most seamless and predictable government services there was. The Government of Canada set a very high standard in getting citizens this critical document in a simple and timely way.

As we all know, there were some colossal failures in meeting this high standard in 2022.

About 10 months ago, we started to see an unprecedented increase in passport applications that we were unable to process, creating huge problems for far too many Canadians. There were lineups and delays, which caused stress and uncertainty.

I have said it a number of times before and I will say it again today: this was unacceptable. So we sought to correct the situation. Service Canada worked very hard to meet some major challenges and get the passport program back on track n order to meet the legitimate expectations of Canadians.

Service Canada nearly doubled the operational workforce, from 1,365 employees in March to 2,639 in December. It expanded access to service for Canadians to more offices. It added processing capacity and streamlined operations.

Staff worked thousands of hours of overtime in processing applications, printing passports and helping Canadians directly, on evenings, weekends and holidays. Special attention was paid to make sure that Canadians with urgent needs were served in time for their travel.

These efforts paid dividends, restabilizing the program by the fall. As of October 3, Service Canada began to once again deliver within the service standards for well beyond 90% of new applications.

However, there were still thousands of Canadians who applied well before that time who had to wait. Some of those Canadians may just be receiving their passports now, despite having applied as early as the summer. I have seen these cases in my own office, as have MPs across all parties. To those Canadians and others who have shown such admirable patience during this difficult situation, I once again apologize.

Since its peak in August 2022, after dedicating resources to ensuring that these Canadians received their passports, over 99% of the backlog of applications has been processed. The backlog is now virtually eliminated. The 1,700 applications that remain are there for many possible reasons. Not every application results in a passport being issued. Some cases may have other complex issues to resolve, such as matters of child custody, eligibility or integrity.

Service Canada has assessed these complex files and is working diligently to complete the review and identify the appropriate outcomes while ensuring passport integrity. The efforts and resources that have been deployed over the past year are now focused on maintaining service standards and anticipating growth in application volumes.

The first wave of passports with the 10-year validity were issued in July 2013. Service Canada is now well positioned to handle the 2023 influx of renewals and beyond.

No program or service is immune to crisis, but that is no excuse for not being well prepared. The lessons learned since the spring have been put into practice. Should there be another crisis in the future, the passport program will have done everything possible to prepare for it.

I am grateful to Service Canada employees for the many overtime hours they worked to serve millions of Canadians in difficult circumstances. It is Service Canada's role to help Canadians get their passport. Service Canada's offices are operating at maximum capacity and are consistently meeting service standards.

As was the case prior to the pandemic, there are going to be seasonal peaks, which might mean lineups at offices sometimes. With March break and summer quickly approaching, Service Canada staff are prepared to serve Canadians as quickly as possible.

Now I'd be happy to take your questions.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you, Minister.

We'll begin with Madam Ferreri for six minutes.

[Michelle Ferreri, Conservative, Peterborough—Kawartha, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Minister, for appearing today.

Do you know the number of passports processed between April 2019 and March 2020?

[Karina Gould, Liberal, Burlington, ON]

It was 2.3 million.

[Michelle Ferreri, Conservative, Peterborough—Kawartha, ON]

Okay, so those are pre-COVID numbers. Do you know how many passports were processed between April 2020 and March 2022?

[Karina Gould, Liberal, Burlington, ON]

Between April and March of 2022....

[Michelle Ferreri, Conservative, Peterborough—Kawartha, ON]

It was 1.273 million, so just over a million less than before the pandemic.

In tabling to the committee, we have on record your saying, “Service Canada simply couldn't cope with the unprecedented surge in passport applications that poured into passport processing centres across the country.”

Minister, the numbers do not make any sense. You actually had fewer passports to process. Who's wrong here, the numbers or you?

[Karina Gould, Liberal, Burlington, ON]

Well, let me start by saying that those numbers don't tell the whole story. During the 2020 and 2021 years, we had a very reduced number of applications. In fact, during 2020 and 2021, all of those passports were issued.

The difference is when you go into the month-by-month comparison. If you look at December 2021 through February 2022, we got about 120,000 applications and we were able to process that number.

Then what happened, starting in March, is that all of a sudden that number jumped to 250,000. In April, it was 270,000; in May, 287,000; in June—

[Michelle Ferreri, Conservative, Peterborough—Kawartha, ON]

Minister, I'm sorry to interrupt. We have such limited time here—

[Karina Gould, Liberal, Burlington, ON]

I think it's important to make sure that we have clarity on the record for what the actual story is that the numbers tell.

[Michelle Ferreri, Conservative, Peterborough—Kawartha, ON]

There's clarity as well that the number is over a million fewer, so for you to say that you couldn't cope with the unprecedented surge doesn't reconcile itself.

Moving on—

[Karina Gould, Liberal, Burlington, ON]

Right, but, Ms. Ferreri, it's important to understand what the capacity for processing is versus what the application is.

When you go from one month to another with a doubling of the applications, that's going to cause a strain in the system, and that happened consistently for about four months.

[Michelle Ferreri, Conservative, Peterborough—Kawartha, ON]

Minister, I'm going to move on, because your logic isn't adding up for us here.

“Virtually eliminated the passport backlog” is what you've also submitted to the committee. Those are your words, that you've “virtually eliminated the passport backlog,” but we have members.... In particular, the member from North Okanagan—Shuswap had a constituent write in that on January 14 of 2023, he sat outside in the rain for three hours before doors opened on a lineup of over 80 people.

Is that virtually eliminating backlogs to you, Minister?

[Karina Gould, Liberal, Burlington, ON]

Ms. Ferreri, I think it's important to understand what the backlog is versus what happens at a Service Canada centre.

[Michelle Ferreri, Conservative, Peterborough—Kawartha, ON]

Are you okay with people waiting that long?

[Karina Gould, Liberal, Burlington, ON]

Ms. Ferreri, if you could let me finish, that would, I think, help clarify the situation.

What the backlog refers to was the number of applications that were submitted to Passport Canada that were not issued within the service standards. That has virtually been eliminated in the sense that now when people apply for a passport, they are getting their passports within the service standards, which is 10 business days if it's in person or 20 business days if it's by mail.

Of course we don't want people waiting outside, but I can confirm to Canadians that there is no need to arrive at a Service Canada centre or a passport office before it opens. They open at 8:30 at all of the busy centres. There are teams of managers who triage the line, usually from 7:00 or 7:30 in the morning, to make sure that they're serving people in a timely way.

[Michelle Ferreri, Conservative, Peterborough—Kawartha, ON]

Thank you, Minister.

Going back to what you've just said about virtually eliminating the backlog, when we look at this information that's been presented, it says, “With regard to Passport Canada, the following volumes of passport applications remain in processing”.

For 20 business days, which is your now service standard, and older, there are almost 22,000. For eight weeks, which is 40 business days and older, there are almost 20,000. For three months or 65 business days, it's at 20,000. There are 12,000 at 17 weeks, and at six months or older, the number of people waiting for their passport is almost 2,000.

Is that virtually eliminating backlog? Does that define backlog for you, Minister?

[Karina Gould, Liberal, Burlington, ON]

The backlog is any application that is outside of the service standards; however, what I can confirm is that within processing since October 3, we are well over 98% with regard to passports that are processed in that time.

If there is a delay, it's usually because there's information missing from the passport application. Every application has been touched in the system and has been assigned to an officer, and they're working with Canadians.

Not every application results in a passport, because there may be other extenuating circumstances, such as integrity issues. We obviously have, unfortunately, people who apply fraudulently for passports, so it is the case that not every application will result in a passport.

Those that remain in the system are usually the most complicated cases. Often there are custody issues, and I'm sure you can appreciate that we want to ensure that we are doing everything we can as a government, as Service Canada, to make sure that we provide integrity in the service.

[Michelle Ferreri, Conservative, Peterborough—Kawartha, ON]

Thank you, Minister.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you, Madame Ferreri. Thank you, Minister.

Now we'll go to Mr. Collins for six minutes.

[Chad Collins, Liberal, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

Thanks, Mr. Chairman.

Good morning, Minister. Welcome back.

Minister, a lot of attention has been paid to the human resource side of resolving the passport issue. Many articles and, of course, your own testimony talked about how we ramped up numbers in offices and extended hours. A lot of people worked overtime to try to meet the historic demand in passport renewals and new applications, but not much has been said about the technology and the investments that have been made to better prepare us for future events that might put us in the same situation as in 2022.

Can you speak to the investments that have been made by the department and the ministry as they relate to replacing antiquated systems that may have been in place?

I had the opportunity to speak to a retiree, someone who worked in Service Canada for a long time. We talked about the system that was in place for many years. It was antiquated and certainly didn't help us when we started to see the problems that we experienced in 2022.

Can you provide some information along those lines in terms of investments that have been made?

[Karina Gould, Liberal, Burlington, ON]

Yes, absolutely.

I think it's important to note that one of the main challenges we had in the passport program, with the surge we saw following the lifting of travel restrictions in the spring, was that we just didn't have the human resources capacity. Therefore, since in the first year of the pandemic we received only about 363,000 applications and in the second year 1.2 million, and we're already on track to deliver 2.6 million passports this year and we anticipate probably another million before the end of the fiscal year, we did have to increase our human resources capacity. We have doubled that workforce, which has put us in a much better position to respond to the level of demand for passports.

At the same time, there was also a recognition that this is a very paper-based application process. It's very much an analog system in a digital world. It clearly doesn't always meet the expectations of Canadians in terms of receiving this service, so we made a number of changes originally. You may not have known this, but until this summer, if you went to a Service Canada centre, you could drop off an application, but you weren't actually able to check the status of your passport or request a transfer. Providing access to Service Canada centre personnel right across the country was one of the things provided in the current IT system.

We also upgraded the telephone system. It had a limited capacity, because we previously didn't have the same kind of demand.

We will also be launching—hopefully soon—an online status check and also moving towards a newer 21st century IT system to make the passport system much more efficient and effective, particularly for simple renewals.

[Chad Collins, Liberal, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

Thank you for sharing that information, Minister.

The 10-year passports will be expiring soon. I know you've made some public comments in terms of what the department is doing to better prepare for the influx of passports with that date we're soon going to see coming upon us.

Could you let us know how we're preparing for that surge and how we're maybe better prepared, this time around, to assist with those application renewals for those who have a 10-year passport in their hands right now?

[Karina Gould, Liberal, Burlington, ON]

Yes, certainly.

It's important to note that the first 10-year passports were issued in July of 2013, so the first 10-year passport renewals will happen in July of this year. We understand that this is going to mean a big influx. The fact that Service Canada has doubled the existing workforce is going to help with that.

We also expanded passport services to 13 additional Service Canada centres across the country, and we have plans to increase that by another 25 offices within the next fiscal year, which will expand access.

There's something very important about that, because we see in busy urban centres that it's not just the folks who live in those centres who go there to get their passports renewed. It's also people who are coming from more remote areas, so the more we can spread out the passport program around the country, the less busy those urban centres are going to be and the more access people in rural or remote communities will have to passport services.

We've also maintained the simple renewal process for anyone who has had a valid passport that has expired within the last 15 years.